Dumble note flipping caught on sound file!

[WhopperPlate]

I remember I used to always try and get that "note flipping" effect before I really knew how to get my sound, or how to explain the effect for that matter. Thanks for giving it a name!

Agreed, the effect is mainly due to the fingers, but not all amps reproduce this, not by a long shot.

I played a Glaswerks new Dual Overdrive 6l6 amp. At will it would bloom and flip all over the place; I loathed having to say goodbye to that amp. I can't wait to build myself a D style amp.

[vibratoking]

There have been several theories in this thread related to blooming/flipping.
1 - it is created by the player
2 - it is created by the player, but some amps won't reproduce it
3 - the feedback control system theory
4 - the differences in plate sag of the various preamp stages
5 - it comes from some influence related to the transformers

Any others? I must have forgot something. I didn't re-read the full thread to find them all. I have to admit that I think I hear and reproduce blooming. I am not positive that I have heard a difference between blooming and flipping. Anyone care to post a single note version of each? Tag posted a clip that is very close to a single note comparison of blooming vs no blooming, but I have not heard a similar clip showcasing flipping.

Hear are my thoughts on the theories:

1 - I can make blooming happen, but I can't make it happen on all my guitars. Plugged or unplugged. I can't make it happen on all notes on ANY single guitar. Certain notes are more 'willing' to give it up. Plugged or unplugged.
2 - Most of my amps will reproduce it given that the guitar will produce it, but some will not.
3 - I haven't really thought deeply about this, but my observations above seem to indicate that this is really not what is at work.
4 - The fact that my D-clone will not reproduce blooming in jazz mode, only in rock mode, indicates that it is not related to the sag of the preamp stages. I have not opened up my amp and scoped the plate voltages since this thread started, but I think the sag will be very close, whether in jazz or rock mode.
5 - ???

[greiswig]

Vibratoking,

You read my mind: on my instruments, some notes are much better at it than others. But I'm wondering if the amps that are "really good" at this can do it on any note on any instrument? Not sure that sounds like a good thing.

[Structo]

I for one would like to understand what causes the note bloom type feedback, because I sincerely believe that is what it is.
What is the technical reason?
There is a feedback loop forming between the guitar and speakers.
What is in between those? The amp.

So what lends itself to more of said blooming?

Not sure I would want it on every note but it would be cool to be able to coax it from it when desired.

I think it depends heavily on the guitar.
One thing I have noticed with my dual humbucker guitar is that my new 100w amp sustains a real long time especially when in OD.
Not so much on the single coil guitars.

If I have the volume up medium loud (that is a notch above bedroom level:D) I can get it to bloom into feedback depending where I am standing in relation to the amp.

I've seen some of the greats do this, like BB and not to mention Robben Ford.

But as is frequently said on another guitar forum, I'm going to shut up and play now.

Very Good![IMG:33:35]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/ ... banana.gif[/img][IMG:33:35]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/ ... banana.gif[/img]

[WhopperPlate]

When one talks about bloom do we mean harmonic feedback?

Just trying to clarify the difference between bloom and flipping.

[Structo]

I think it is the same thing but with the flipping I don't think it develops into a full blown harmonic, kind of like half way there, if that makes sense.

[greiswig]

One other thing that I mentioned before here, and encouraged others to try: if you have a head, try removing it from the speaker and see if/how this changes the feedback/flippin' thing. Then put it back and see if it changes again. To me, it hints that this phenomenon might be multivariate: acoustic, mechanical, perhaps having to do with the way the magnetic fields couple between the pickups and transformer, certainly having to do with the damping qualities of certain spots on the neck of the guitar...only Howie knows all!

[vibratoking]

I for one would like to understand what causes the note bloom type feedback, because I sincerely believe that is what it is.

When one talks about bloom do we mean harmonic feedback?

I don't agree that bloom necessarily results in feedback and a note that continues basically for ever. In my mind, bloom is a feature that happens at some point in the duration of a note. A note is struck and then the note morphs so that there is more second harmonic present. For me, the full spectrum of the note is still intact, but more second harmonic becomes evident. Feedback may or may not occur depending on volume, orientation etc... You can here this very well in Tag's latest clip.

This is why I have been asking for clips of single note examples. I personally cannot say that I understand what flipping really is. Any clear clips?

[JD0x0]

One other thing that I mentioned before here, and encouraged others to try: if you have a head, try removing it from the speaker and see if/how this changes the feedback/flippin' thing. Then put it back and see if it changes again. To me, it hints that this phenomenon might be multivariate: acoustic, mechanical, perhaps having to do with the way the magnetic fields couple between the pickups and transformer, certainly having to do with the damping qualities of certain spots on the neck of the guitar...only Howie knows all!

Pickmaster posted some clips on ceriatone forum. He went direct in, no monitors or speakers besides headphones. The OTS still produced bloom and feedback on command.

[vibratoking]

Pickmaster posted some clips on ceriatone forum. He went direct in, no monitors or speakers besides headphones. The OTS still produced bloom and feedback on command.

Something is missing here. Feedback can't happen without a closed loop - acoustic energy feeding back to the pickups is required. I don't see how this can happen with headphones. The D-style amp is a good amp, but it can't defy physics.

EDIT: BobW is correct in his post below. The feedback could occur inside the amp, but I have never seen a D circuit with the possibility of unity gain or more in the feedback loop.

[BobW]

Tom, the feedback control loop mentioned in my earlier post was the actual amp circuit. I'm not sure if you are referring here to audio feedback?

What is the technical reason?
There is a feedback loop forming between the guitar and speakers.
What is in between those? The amp.

Changing components in the feedback circuit (PI, Presence and FBresistor) not only affects the gain, it also affects the phase. Which is why I think this circuit plays a part in creating bloom and/or flipping. How much does it play a part? I don't know but this is an area, as Gil also suggested to experiment with.

[Mr Dumble]

My very first post is the best example of note flipping. (Or what I call note flipping) it is NOT feedback, as the note will not go on forever. It dies just the same way as if the note did not flip, it just kind if changes phase, or something. Its hard to imagine it is caused by your fingers, because you can hear it long after the note was picked (actually pulled off in the example), but the harder you do it, the more it occurs. Very cool ideas in the thread, and I sure as heck do not have the answers! All I know is its something that certain dumbles do a lot more than others, and 183 does it REALLY well. (Funny the example is a TwoRock however!)

[JD0x0]

Took me a while but found it.

Sure they know the ropes! but they don't know about my mod
which makes amp more bloomy and pronounced.
Hear the bloom here and it is not a feedback, recorded without speaker, streight to the PC

Neck pickup http://www.drika.biz/bloom.mp3

Bridge pickup http://www.drika.biz/bloom2.mp3

Link to thread
http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=397.120

[vibratoking]

JD0x0 - thanks for the links to the clips and post.

I think those links are the best examples in this thread of blooming. It is interesting that the most intense blooming in those clips are with the neck pickup. I suppose the neck pickup position plays into that since it is much closer to the central position of the string length compared to the bridge pickup. It 'sees' more second harmonic. Interesting.

I am very surprised that those clips are with headphones only and recorded direct. It appears that the poster is on to something as far as bloom goes. I would also say that I don't like the tone of those clips. It is far to buzzy for my taste.

Also interesting that the poster never revealed the 'trick'.

Now I/we have more to think about.

Thanks again.

[Structo]

You know that is Dr. Ika as he is called, right?

I for one am just a bit skeptical of that clip.

How can something bloom or feedback without speakers?