Gil,ayan wrote:I will try to answer this as best as I can, and it goes without saying that all I can offer are my observations. I have built many Dumble clones of different types, and played a few of the real amps. I can make additional generalizations based on other amps I've owned over the years:Max wrote:Hi Steve, Hi Gil, Hi all
as you see I am still wondering:
Why are you that sure, that your disliking of the sounds you get out of certain kinds of pickups with your ODS clones is a result of the general charakter of "Dumble circuits" and not a result of the specific combination of the specific circuit, parts, layout, tubes, cables, speakers,..., of your specific Dumble clones?
Or can't it be that yor disliking of certain pickups is not a result of using a clone of a Dumble ODS but simply your personal taste in regard of pickups?
Gil, did you have the same experience when you played #124, or did you like the pickups with #124 that you don't like with your clones?
Or, if you like the sound of those "disliked" pickups with some other amps (Marshall, Boogie, Two Rock, whatsoever), why don't you use those with in combination with these pickups instead of a dumble-clone?
Please let me repeat (without throwing vegetables at me) why I wonder that much about what many of you report in your posts in this thread:
- Many of you posted that they liked the sound of this german guitar player Gregor which - as far as I understood - he got with humbuckers a n d singlecoils. Gregor (or any other user of an original ODS), can you tell us about your experiences with different guitars and pickups.
- Could some of you perhaps point out to me a life recording of LC or RF where I can hear how their sound gets worse because they switch from a humbucker to a singlecoil guitar?
- How do you explain the legion of Dumble-Users (Lowell George, SRV, Eric Johnson, LC, RF, Bonnie Raitt, Steve Farris, Rick Vito, Todd Sharp, John Mayer and so on) that did/do get great sounds out of their Dumbles using singel coils.
How does this fact correspond to your believe, that "Dumble curcuits" in general do work well only with special pickups (best with humbuckers, as far as I understand many of you)?
Cheers and greetings to all
Max
1. To me, Strats tend to sound great through Marshalls -- and I mean especially the older type. Coincidentally, my Strat sounds very nice -- and possibly nicest -- through my Blues Master amp. I find it very difficult to play a Strat that sounds good, with overdrive of course, on positions 2 and 4 AND the bridge pickup by itelf. When you get 2 and 4 happening, the bridge pickup can sound shrill. If you get a fat bridge pickup sound, positions 2 and 4 sound too dark. My observation also was that Strats didn't get along well with Boogie Marks I, II and III type of amps. And for what it's worth, when I played those amps, I played my 335 and on the neck pickup... Since switching to the D-style amps, I spend 90% of the time on the bridge pickup on my 335.
2. My Tele seems to be the most forgiving guitar I have ever played, it always seems to get a good sound.
3. I liked 124 with humbuckers, but as I've said repeatedly before, that was a pretty brown sounding amp. Not a clean sound in it, actually, but it was super spongy sounding with humbuckers. It needed new caps when I played it, Lord knows what it would have sounded like with fresh caps.
4. I like the sound of LC in Last Nite a lot. However, that rig included a parametric EQ which Larry used, and the guitar had active electronics in it. In the early 90s I saw LC play with 64 Strat (or whatever year it was) a lot, and I didn't like the sound he got at all. There is a live recording of LC in Japan at the Blue Note Tokyo playing the Strat and his Valley Arts signature. To me, the VA sounded way better. In the same era, his amp seemed to sound simply fantastic with a LP Special with P90s, and there is a video of a show in Montreral floating around where he plays that guitar exclusively.
5. In 2000, I saw RF play a Yellowjackets 20 year reunion gig, he was using a green combo on that gig. I have to admit I didn't like the sound of his Baker guitar through that amp too much on that occasion, but when he switched to the Strat, the sound was really raspy and harsh, not a good sound to me.
6. Of all the other players you mention, I can offer the observation that John Mayer (whom I think is great) plays almost clean. Eric Johnson derives his overdrive a lot from pedals, and his sound is so processed one is hard pressed to tell whether he's playing a Strat, an SG or a 335. Sounds the same to me. My beef with the D-style amps and Strats has always been trying to get a good honking overdriven tone out of the amps. Even the Mesa Boohie Marks sounded good with a Strat if one kept the gain on the low side.
My bottom line is mostly with Strats themselves in terms of overdrive, to be perfectly honest with you. Hard to get a great sound with them, but when the tone is on, it is magnificent. My favorite Strat sound? Ritchie Blackmore and Deep Purple Mark II, hands down.
Gil
Thank you for your detailed answer. Now I understand better. In the end it seems (for me) to be a matter of personal taste that does not have much to do with a general technical character of "Dumble Circuits":
You and other posters don't like, how many or at least some strats sound with an original ODS and their clones. I like a lot how strats sound (clean and with OD) with an original ODS (no personal experience in regard of any clones).
What I can add are the following observations:
A friend of mine who is a very fine guitarplayer and since his beginnings only plays strats from the sixties (no collectors items but "player" instruments with their original pickups) switched to Dumble ODS 20 years ago (at that time you could still easily buy originals for the money that now buys a clone) because he often had the problem to achieve a fat and sustaining juicy sound when playing in the upper registers past the 12th fret (on the b and e strings in special) using his Duncan "Convertible" that he played before the ODS.
He likes to get a fat, juicy and beefy overdrive lead sound out of his battered but original vintage strats.
The switch to Dumble ODS amps (he bought and sold some and after some years he stuck with the one he liked best, a very early 50 Watt, like those Lindley plays) solved the problem for him. He uses this with an original Marshall 4x12" with 25Watt "greenbacks" wired for 4 Ohms or with a Dumble 1x12" cabinet with EVM-12L
That's what he does to get the best "fat strat " lead sounds out of his ODS:
Input Volume always full up (using his guitars volume to back off), bright switch off, deep switch on or off, rock/jazz more often in the jazz position, mid-pot often full up or set high, treble and bass adjusted according to the venue, OD somewhere between 3 and 7 and just enough output volume to smooth and integrate the sound a bit with a bit of power-amp saturation.
What he gets by this is a kind of "Jeff Beck" sound (to give you an idea).
In addition to the use of an ODS, to get his fat Jeff Beck like strat sounds he looks for strats that do not have an inherited "Mark Knopfler" sound but are more on the fat and dark sounding side (but with a lot of fine overtones that you may find more easyly on some(!) aged instruments instead of the "harshness" of some(!) new).
He prefers to have a dark sounding strat from the beginning because in his eyes it is no problem to get attack and twang out of a fat sounding strat by the way you attack the strings, but can be a problem to get a fat sound out of a strat that is of the "plinky-plinky" type for the Hank Marvin stuff.
One thing that helps in addition (in his eyes) is the use of a guitar cable that does not pronounce the highs too much but more the fundamentals. He uses since years and years an old Monster "Studio" cable (not an instrument cable) that he once got from a producer.
Thanks again and have a good time
Max
I didnt buy the rather expensive Kinmans from 'down under' to my cheapy non name Tele. Instead I bought a Tonerider Hot Classics set. Wonderful pickups. They are by the way from Australia aswell, and quite cheap. Now my D'Lite sings, no harshness and still a Tele twang.
