martin manning wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:23 pm
Here is what I see. Sample 1 and Sample 2 will not play. I can download the MP3 files and listen, but as you can see they are not named Sample 1 and Sample 2. Which is which?
Martin
By the time you run all your useless tests and fumble around with Erwin's sound files and critique him about how he posted his recordings, you could have put the four resistors (Same ones Erwin has) I sent you in your amp and listen to them for yourself. It's beginning to look like your going out of your way to try and prove to yourself and everyone here that some well-respected members here at TAG are really just hearing things.
@ Erwin
Your hearing exactly the same thing Charlie,Jelle and myself are hearing. Nice Playin!!
Tony
Last edited by talbany on Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
FWIW - I prefer number 1. Just a gnats ass more clear in the high end.
I feel they are close enough to not yank my amp apart over. But the proof is in the playing while hearing. Playing is very tasty by the way. A fun test and good listen...
martin manning wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:23 pm
Here is what I see. Sample 1 and Sample 2 will not play. I can download the MP3 files and listen, but as you can see they are not named Sample 1 and Sample 2. Which is which?
Martin
By the time you run all your useless tests and fumble around with Erwin's sound files and critique him about how he posted his recordings, you could have put the four resistors (Same ones Erwin has) I sent you in your amp and listen to them for yourself. It's beginning to look like your going out of your way to try and prove to yourself and everyone here that some well-respected members here at TAG are really just hearing things.
@ Erwin
Your hearing exactly the same thing Charlie,Jelle and myself are hearing. Nice Playin!!
Tony
Sorry Tony, but color me skeptical since there is a limited source of these components and the sources are making the claims about how good they sound. Quite frankly, I'll stick with scientific measurements. There are too many great sounding amps that do not employ these components.
-jack
I better like Sample 2 ... but I hear more difference in the MEDIUM side (?my old 66 year old ears? )
or it's what you describe as " Less spikey, smoother ..."
I will wait for the result ...
EDIT : it's funny coz after reading different comments suggesting to "flip it at various points between A and B" ( thanks norburybrook it was not easy for me to translate so I borrow your whole sentence )
that the way I listen these samples : parts by parts ( lick by lick ).
And not only I hear a difference and Sample2 seems "smoother" to me ! ???
jam-mill wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:41 pm
Sorry Tony, but color me skeptical since there is a limited source of these components and the sources are making the claims about how good they sound. Quite frankly, I'll stick with scientific measurements. There are too many great sounding amps that do not employ these components.
-jack
I respect your opinion and don't blame you, I am usually very skeptical and going down this rabbit hole is a lot of work. I've started work on my low plate Skyliner amp,having replaced some resistors and caps already. I've done all preamp grid stoppers (resistors and cap) and the resistors at the front panel switches and pots. One item that I cannot wrap my arms around, conceptually, is the 22 Meg resistors at the PAB relay board -- which is a bear to get to given the location of the PAB relay board and the amount of connections on it. These can't possibly make a difference, their sole purpose should be to prevent popping when entering PAB mode. However, this is the second amp in which I've replaced Xicon CFs with Allen Bradley CCs. In both cases, the result is a sweeter sounding OD in PAB mode. Maybe I should be committed to some kind of institution, but this is not an insignificant improvement. I will have a chance to replace the new Dales with the vintage ones soon, and will report what I hear.
ayan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:00 pm
One item that I cannot wrap my arms around, conceptually, is the 22 Meg resistors at the PAB relay board -- which is a bear to get to given the location of the PAB relay board and the amount of connections on it. These can't possibly make a difference, their sole purpose should be to prevent popping when entering PAB mode. However, this is the second amp in which I've replaced Xicon CFs with Allen Bradley CCs. In both cases, the result is a sweeter sounding OD in PAB mode
There might be something to that. CC are known to have voltage dependance, and when in PAB they are active in the circuit.
martin manning wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:23 pm
Here is what I see. Sample 1 and Sample 2 will not play. I can download the MP3 files and listen, but as you can see they are not named Sample 1 and Sample 2. Which is which?
Martin
By the time you run all your useless tests and fumble around with Erwin's sound files and critique him about how he posted his recordings, you could have put the four resistors (Same ones Erwin has) I sent you in your amp and listen to them for yourself. It's beginning to look like your going out of your way to try and prove to yourself and everyone here that some well-respected members here at TAG are really just hearing things.
@ Erwin
Your hearing exactly the same thing Charlie,Jelle and myself are hearing. Nice Playin!!
Tony
Sorry Tony, but color me skeptical since there is a limited source of these components and the sources are making the claims about how good they sound. Quite frankly, I'll stick with scientific measurements. There are too many great sounding amps that do not employ these components.
-jack
First off Jack. I never said you couldn't build a great sounding amp using parts other than the ones I've mentioned. I have a JTM 45 that is loaded with Phiers and Fender style amps that have Allen Bradley's and Xicons through out that amp and one of the best sounding amps I've ever built had KOA Speers on the plates I urge you to check it out https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... k+city+amp
Please point me to one of my posts that says you have to use certain parts otherwise you will not have a great sounding amp? (As you put it)
As far as the scientific studies goes with respect to resistor performance in audio systems is a debate that has been ongoing pretty much since dirt has been around and audio systems were born and continues to rage to this day within the audiophile community along with tubes and capacitors cables and other audio components. You really think all of this were to be easily solved with a curve trace or some sound files posted here will finally settle this debate then "Color me skeptical!"
If you really want to get scientific the best test I know of is for you to be in the same room with the amp and hear and play it for yourself It's a nuance
BTW. I realize not everyone can hear the difference and not every amp is the same.
Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
First of all, Erwin thank you very much for the effort and for stepping on the plate.
To be honest, I didn't hear a difference that I can put in words. But I felt that sample 1 was a touch 'mellower'/'less piercing' (?) on OD. So I chose sample 1 as my better option.
talbany wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:12 pm
@ Erwin
Your hearing exactly the same thing Charlie,Jelle and myself are hearing. Nice Playin!!
Tony
@Tony and @Erwin, though you state that you can hear the difference do you also hear that in the audio files? Or is a more pronounced live in the room?
Just curious, don't want to put you on the spot. If you do find the difference is obvious from the audio files, then you know what to listen for.
(I also still have troubles evaluating Tag's note flipping etc. so I guess I don't listen to the right things.)
Regards,
Harald
PS what I do hear in both samples is the 'basic' Dumble screaming OD that I like. And fortunately I can achieve that with my D'Lite. So grateful
wokkel wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:49 pm
First of all, Erwin thank you very much for the effort and for stepping on the plate.
To be honest, I didn't hear a difference that I can put in words. But I felt that sample 1 was a touch 'mellower'/'less piercing' (?) on OD. So I chose sample 1 as my better option.
talbany wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:12 pm
@ Erwin
Your hearing exactly the same thing Charlie,Jelle and myself are hearing. Nice Playin!!
Tony
@Tony and @Erwin, though you state that you can hear the difference do you also hear that in the audio files? Or is a more pronounced live in the room?
Just curious, don't want to put you on the spot. If you do find the difference is obvious from the audio files, then you know what to listen for.
(I also still have troubles evaluating Tag's note flipping etc. so I guess I don't listen to the right things.)
Regards,
Harald
PS what I do hear in both samples is the 'basic' Dumble screaming OD that I like. And fortunately I can achieve that with my D'Lite. So grateful
Harald thank you for listening!
First let me say I have a hard time to detect any difference in some parts of the recording while other parts are obvious different while listening.
Having the amp in the room playing loud does help to identify, also the feel of the amp is different.
What I mean with feel is this: When I build my #102 the Ps filter cap on v5 was a 20uF opposed to the 40uF in the original. When changing this ecap to 40uF the amp immediatly has a different feel. It only shows up audible in a recording when the amp is played very loud. Maybe not the best comparison but you get the idea.
On members hearing no difference: that's fine, it is probably easier to detect a speaker swap than this resistor swap.
Erwin
btw Tag's note flipping might be the balance of the phase inverter; when the amp is balanced at pick attack the amp "blooms" when fading as the PI becomes unbalanced generating overtones. When the amp is balanced somewhere in between there first is unbalance, than balance and further on unbalance in the PI. My opinion, take it with a grain of salt.
@ Herold
From where I am listening from for the most part they sound pretty close however there are some spots on the clean channel where I can hear the difference. You are right if you do not know what to listen for it's hard to spot. The recordings really only tell you if the sound is brighter or darker so I am not sure how it will accurately pick up a more open airy sound?. It's also difficult to pick up if an amp might be a little more spikey (as Erwin puts it) given all the compression generated from the preamps and digital conversion. Also the EQ settings he had on the OD stuff was rolled off a bit too which made it hard to detect. Given that my speakers are not that great anyway. What I was referring too was the description he gave
Less spikey, smoother and they have an open, airy feel while playing.
This was the exact description Charlie gave to me before I tried them and is the exact same thing I heard too.
As far as the feel thing goes what I get is a little more compression on the top end on the old Dales when you really dig in vs the new ones which don't compress as easily and the spike in the top end happens.Again with all the compression going on in the recording process, it's hard to pick it out
Thats about the best I can describe it.
BTW. I think the phenomenon Tag was hearing is commonly known as swirl?
Tony
Last edited by talbany on Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
erwin_ve wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:49 pmWhen I build my #102 the Ps filter cap on v5 was a 20uF opposed to the 40uF in the original. When changing this ecap to 40uF the amp immediatly has a different feel...
Sure, the transient response of the power supply will be different.
erwin_ve wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:49 pmTag's note flipping might be the balance of the phase inverter; when the amp is balanced at pick attack the amp "blooms" when fading as the PI becomes unbalanced generating overtones. When the amp is balanced somewhere in between there first is unbalance, than balance and further on unbalance in the PI. My opinion, take it with a grain of salt.
I think the "note flipping" might be a bias excursion due to the cathode bypass cap charging up, possibly passing in and out of clipping during the transient.
talbany wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:12 pm...As far as the scientific studies goes with respect to resistor performance in audio systems is a debate that has been ongoing pretty much since dirt has been around and audio systems were born and continues to rage to this day within the audiophile community along with tubes and capacitors cables and other audio components.
Tubes are fundamentally different from solid state devices. Capacitors are reactive, and the different dielectric materials have known differences, like the data Erwin recently found showing distortion and capacitance behavior for different types of ceramic caps. Cables use different materials, yielding varying capacitance per foot. The main purpose of an audio cable is to carry signal, but it is also a capacitor, with measurable and audible effects. Resistors are non-reactive, and except for CC types, they don't have any significant differences in their electrical properties. If there are audible differences, then there must be some physical reasons behind them. The only measurement I have seen addressing this so far is the plot in Blencowe's Hi-Fi preamp book showing extremely low THD+N for MF types. I can't see any difference with an LCR meter, and my curve traces show there is no voltage dependance on resistance for the new or old MF, or for CF.
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