NOS Dale RN65D vs New RN65D's

[Charlie Wilson]

OK, maybe I'm going to less chill this. I have a bit of a problem with posting clips that everyone says sound different with similar descriptions and saying that yeah you hear it but I'm Joe studio, guitar guy, trust me your delusional. This is absolute insanity. This is the reason guys like Brandon and now Jelle don't come around anymore. The idea that you take a few layouts and a Mouser order and have surpassed Dumble himself takes ego to a new level. Well I'm off to take my four day crash course in studio recording. I should be George Martin by the end of it. Oh and as far as whining about the 14 week wait, it took me 10 years to find those.
CW (out for awhile )

[talbany]

OK, maybe I'm going to less chill this. I have a bit of a problem with posting clips that everyone says sound different with similar descriptions and saying that yeah you hear it but I'm Joe studio, guitar guy, trust me your delusional. This is absolute insanity. This is the reason guys like Brandon and now Jelle don't come around anymore. The idea that you take a few layouts and a Mouser order and have surpassed Dumble himself takes ego to a new level. Well I'm off to take my four day crash course in studio recording. I should be George Martin by the end of it.
CW (out for awhile )

Yeah! I get it!. It's insane

Tony

[pompeiisneaks]

I'll add in two things:

1. I'm glad people are keeping it civil, it's a debate with a strong mix of both science and religion (not literally, just using the figurative sense of fact vs opinion).

2. I didn't listen, because I feel I'm a poor judge by my hearing, it's been damaged from time in the Army Infantry, in Iraq, as well as from playing loud music.

Part 2 there leads me to one of my personal beliefs about this.

1. nobody has likely done area scientific study of this. It would require a ton of money and time. You'd need to build like hundreds of amps 1/3 of which used one type of plate resistor, 1/3 of which used another, and a third that used the cheapest most common type of resistor. Then you'd need to combine complex math of a: running every amp through a rigorous test suite of automated tests to calculate frequency analysis of the entire spectrum, FFT data for every amp, etc. You'd need to limit the amount of variables as much as possible, like same room, same temperatures, potentially same tubes in every amp or severely tested/matched sets to preclude any specific issues with the tubes, etc.
2, Then a second set of statistical data would need to be gathered to see what personal hearing responses are by people, because hearing responses vary drastically from person to person, and things a machine can detect may only be noticed by 1 out of 100 or 1000 or 1 million people etc.

I'm sure I'm missing 100 other variables you'd need to account for.

So my point being, I don't see how anyone is going to scientifically prove this point. Even though I'd love it. So instead it relies on the personal hearing/and opinion of the user/owner/player etc. That means nobody is wrong, you take it for w hat you want/need and move on

as mentioned mines kinda shit, so my opinion probably matters less than most on the 'tone' of things

~Phil

[Aurora]

There have been some few discussions on this topic during the last decade, and I still keep wondering.... The HiFi-world also struggles with similar problems..
There's a few things that bothers me.... expectation bias, - people hear differences based on expectation that there will be a difference, also based on visual confirmation that what looks better also must sound better
I'm somewhat sceptical to vintage components. One thing is that tolerance usually is a lot worse than modern components, and possible sonic change could just as well be because of "the other" component having a slightly different value. Tube amps being high impedance will be a lot more susceptible to this than solid state. The same goes for variations i parasitic capacitance. Why else should cap orientation have any influence?
As for variations between old and new RN65s, I do expect the production process and material/chemistry to be identical, - otherwise they would not both be RN65s....

[norburybrook]

OK, maybe I'm going to less chill this. I have a bit of a problem with posting clips that everyone says sound different with similar descriptions and saying that yeah you hear it but I'm Joe studio, guitar guy, trust me your delusional. This is absolute insanity. This is the reason guys like Brandon and now Jelle don't come around anymore. The idea that you take a few layouts and a Mouser order and have surpassed Dumble himself takes ego to a new level. Well I'm off to take my four day crash course in studio recording. I should be George Martin by the end of it. Oh and as far as whining about the 14 week wait, it took me 10 years to find those.
CW (out for awhile )

Charlie,

Who was whining, I was making a joke about it, no one was whining. Also your post is a bit below the belt. I have no ego in this at all. Since I've been a member here all I've ever done is to post my experiences good or bad as they happened. i've posted stupid embarrassing newby mistakes and errors that if I had an ego I would have kept to myself but in the hope it would help someone else have posted them publicly.

When guy's like Mark Knopfler and a top session guitarist for Eric Clapton's/Van Morrison,Bonnie Raitt or Joey Landreth and Larry Carlton try your amp and are knocked out then surely that means you've made a great amp. As I've always stated I've still no idea what makes an amp great and why the few I've made sound so good hence me going down the path of swapping NOS resistors.

Again as I said in an earlier post I didn't want you to feel I was being ungrateful by posting my results as I really appreciated your kind offer, I find it hard to take that you said I was winning.

I've also never once professed to be a great amp builder or give any advice above and beyond my limited knowledge, so again I'm a little hurt my your remark

This is the reason guys like Brandon and now Jelle don't come around anymore. The idea that you take a few layouts and a Mouser order and have surpassed Dumble himself takes ego to a new leve

My view about Jelle and Brandon is they're now running businesses and there might be a conflict of interest sometimes here or they're just too busy building amps and running a business. Or perhaps being cynical they've learned what they need to and have moved on and are no longer giving back. If I'm honest Jelle was quite rude to me on one of my very first posts on this forum and had it not been for the kindness of other and me being somewhat thick skinned I might not have come back here.


Unfortunately this has become the thread I'd hoped it wouldn't with personal attacks and that makes me fell sad as I had hoped for better.

one hurtful post can negate 100 positive good ones unfortunately so bear that in mind in future.


M

[drew]

Listening on Sony MDR-7506 headphones, I don't think I'm hearing anything that can't be explained by minor variations in how hard Marcus is hitting the strings at any given moment. It doesn't sound to me like two different amps, or one amp with two different knob settings.

Wouldn't it be possible to come up with some kind of synthesized sequence of tones that could be played through the amp in both configurations, thereby eliminating human-caused variation in the sound sample?

Bias disclosure: don't believe in magic parts, fairy dust, crystal matrices, fields of marshmallows, etc.; do believe in double-blind testing.

[Deric]

Marcus,

Thanks for taking the time to make clips, swap parts, make clips again and post here with your honest evaluation.

Your effort and opinion are much appreciated.

[talbany]

OK, maybe I'm going to less chill this. I have a bit of a problem with posting clips that everyone says sound different with similar descriptions and saying that yeah you hear it but I'm Joe studio, guitar guy, trust me your delusional. This is absolute insanity. This is the reason guys like Brandon and now Jelle don't come around anymore. The idea that you take a few layouts and a Mouser order and have surpassed Dumble himself takes ego to a new level. Well I'm off to take my four day crash course in studio recording. I should be George Martin by the end of it. Oh and as far as whining about the 14 week wait, it took me 10 years to find those.
CW (out for awhile )

Charlie,

Who was whining, I was making a joke about it, no one was whining. Also your post is a bit below the belt. I have no ego in this at all. Since I've been a member here all I've ever done is to post my experiences good or bad as they happened. i've posted stupid embarrassing newby mistakes and errors that if I had an ego I would have kept to myself but in the hope it would help someone else have posted them publicly.

When guy's like Mark Knopfler and a top session guitarist for Eric Clapton's/Van Morrison,Bonnie Raitt or Joey Landreth and Larry Carlton try your amp and are knocked out then surely that means you've made a great amp. As I've always stated I've still no idea what makes an amp great and why the few I've made sound so good hence me going down the path of swapping NOS resistors.

Again as I said in an earlier post I didn't want you to feel I was being ungrateful by posting my results as I really appreciated your kind offer, I find it hard to take that you said I was winning.

I've also never once professed to be a great amp builder or give any advice above and beyond my limited knowledge, so again I'm a little hurt my your remark

This is the reason guys like Brandon and now Jelle don't come around anymore. The idea that you take a few layouts and a Mouser order and have surpassed Dumble himself takes ego to a new leve

My view about Jelle and Brandon is they're now running businesses and there might be a conflict of interest sometimes here or they're just too busy building amps and running a business. Or perhaps being cynical they've learned what they need to and have moved on and are no longer giving back. If I'm honest Jelle was quite rude to me on one of my very first posts on this forum and had it not been for the kindness of other and me being somewhat thick skinned I might not have come back here.


Unfortunately this has become the thread I'd hoped it wouldn't with personal attacks and that makes me fell sad as I had hoped for better.

one hurtful post can negate 100 positive good ones unfortunately so bear that in mind in future.


M

Marcus
I really wanted to let all of this alone and move on but I just read this post and felt I had to reply. Somebody out of the goodness of their heart sends you (FREE!!) a set of very rare hard to find resistors and you complain that they took several weeks to get to you (In another country) do this all on a public forum for every member here to see,frankly, I don't see how that could be remotely funny! especially during a contentious thread this was turning into. I think is in bad taste and was a stupid thing to say.I would HOPE this does not reflect the type of person you are!.
On the Brandon/Jelle thing.
I was around on the first day this forum opened up and remember when all those guy's used to post here as often as you do and most of us still talk to each other through other means of communication (Charlie even more than me) and I can tell you most don't come around here anymore due to some of the stupid things people sometimes say on the forum and others are quick to take sides no one backs down it turns into a slugfest and they drop off. In the end most feel it's just not worth getting into an argument on a public platform and not good for business. Even when it became obvious that they were giving much more than they were getting back. So from my chair, Charlie was right, many of these still great builders have left here because of stupid things people say and do here. It's a real shame!!.

I am normally not one to jump on a moral soapbox and I sometimes too can get emotional but I see this thing happen time after time and it' sucks see a valuable member of the forum drop off


Btw. Your above post just sounds to me like a bunch of excuses when a simple hey bro I apologize..NOT I was making a Joke just makes it worse!

Tony

[norburybrook]

tony,

well when someone starting insulting you personally then that's BAD period. I genuinely, and have said this about 4 time in posts on this forum, wasn't having a go at ANYONE about the postage taking 14 weeks, I was genuinely amused by it and in NO WAY did I EVER NOT THANK charlie for his generous offers. go back and read what I've written. I started off by saying I didn't want to post this because I didn't want Charlie to feel I wasn't being entirely grateful for his kind gesture. I'd lost hope they'd ever arrive and was genuinely surprised and amused by how this is possible in this day and age. I mailed Charley privately to tell him this so he knows that.

If that had been the only part of his message then I would have certainly AGAIN for the 4 th time ,said thank you or I'm sorry if you were upset, but NO he went on to insult me and I'm surprised that you think I'm in the wrong here and Charlie can do no wrong after personal insults. I'd tried my hardest to keep this from going where it has but I draw the line at personal insults.

I didn't need to make excuses, I was responding to what he said. Are we seriously saying this is about 'the postage'???????

I too speak the Jelle now and again and I've given him advice about where I picked up certain metal film resistors I used on a build so we're cool now. I've also put business his and Brandons way. Most builders stop posting as much as they're busy , Taylor at Amplified nation is the latest since I've been coming here. It's normal and to be expected IMHO. This either a forum for EVERYBODY of all standards or you should make it an elitist forum for private members it can't be both.

As I said I'm happy to contribute to discussions and it's good that people can get passionate, but I'm sorry, I'm not around to be insulted on a personal or professional level on a public forum.





respectfully

MC

[talbany]

So I'll be clear here then you can have the last word if you like.

My post about other members dropping off is of course not solely directed at you.Just to let everyone know that they did not leave the forum because they were too busy building amps. They were already busy building amps. Most were here to help others out and socialize and occasionally learn something.As far as the personal thing goes I don't blame you or Charlie and nobody should get personal but at the same time I can see how your little "joke" about the resistors would send him there. Hopefully you 2 can work this out in a PM or something.

BTW.It's good to hear you and Jelle communicate!

With Respect Back at ya!

Tony

[pompeiisneaks]

I guess I missed the obvious direct dig at norburybrook, that did seem a bit excessive. I've been reading the thread and don't see how anything that norburybrook posted was a direct insult to anyone. It seems to me that the 'religious' part of the debate is winning, and people's opinions are being hurt. (or did I mean feelings?)

You're never going to convince someone that you're right about an opinion, and getting insulted or rude because they don't agree with you is the epitome of what can make a forum like this descend into a constant bickering match.

If anyone here can't respect the right of someone else to have their opinion, and they can't prove it's not opinion, then they should state their opinion once, politely, and move on.

Direct attacks are pointless, mean, and against the forum's rules.

At this point I'll throw out a warning that if it continues I'll lock the thread, and start banning people.

Please, PLEASE keep it civil.

~Phil

[drew]

I was around on the first day this forum opened up and remember when all those guy's used to post here as often as you do and most of us still talk to each other through other means of communication (Charlie even more than me) and I can tell you most don't come around here anymore due to some of the stupid things people sometimes say on the forum and others are quick to take sides no one backs down it turns into a slugfest and they drop off.

Not wanting to serve as the involuntary R&D and Design Departments for Ceriatone wasn't a big part of it?

[Pierre]

Thanks for all of the great knowledge and experience being shared here on this site. I'm not usually the type to give advice or to preach to others but...
Remember, we're only talking about the difference between resistors in guitar amplifiers! I'm sure that regardless of the opinions about a few sound samples everyone will still have a roof over their head and a meal to eat. How about just continuing to share or not because it's an enjoyable part of this pastime and move on. I like designing and building guitar amps even though I can't play a chord. I love the sound of tube amps even though I'm probably tone deaf. It's all good. Again, if you enjoy sharing, keep doing it. I need all the help I can get.