Train Wreck vs Bad Cat

[compaq]

I am debating on my next build. I have narrowed it down to a Trainwreck Express or a Bad Cat. I have never actually had the opportunity to hear a Train Wreck. I have played several Bad cat 30 Watt amps. Does any one have a link to a Bad Cat Layout or schematic.
________
Think mill

[gearhead]

Honestly, since it's still in major production, it's going to be hard to find a schematic for (much less open debate on) a Bad Cat. If the current manufacturers get wind of it, they usually come down hard with a big hammer. I might be in the minority, but IMHO I'm with them on this one.

Highly recommend going with a Trainwreck; you'll get boatloads of help here. In the files section, there are current and more importantly -PROVEN- schematics that have been used for quite a number of successful builds by those that frequent this board.

Check out the files section for clips of the trainwreck; that should make up your mind: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=17

[Allynmey]

Has our forum degenerated to this? We can't talk about Komets because they are in production. Marshall reissues an 18 watt, 1959, and a bluesbreaker, can we talk about them? Hiwatt just reissued their line of amps, are they off subject too? This is an amp building forum! Admittedly this forum is for Trainwrecks so if you want to limit the conversation to TW that is understandable. But in a general forum like tech discussion anything should be on the table. Compaq, I PM'ed you about the Hot Cat.

I researched the forum posts just prior to releasing the pictures of Francesca. The forum was almost stagnant. After the release, there was action for a while as all the builds were started. The forum slowed down for a while and saw it's most action when a number of us finished our TW's around April 1-2. Now, with the introduction of Hogy and the rest of the unofficial censors, we are down to 2-3 posts a day! Frankly, I don't know why Hogy was invited here (Chimeboss) . He did not come with discussion of amp circuits or insight for that matter. He came to bring the hammer down. Maybe we can extent an invitation to Dr.Z and Randall Smith, and Dumble next. I'm sure they will have lots of juicy circuits they want to share.

I personally would love to see the amplifiers built by Chimeboss and others who so freely give there advice without contributing to the technical advancement of the site.

Allynmey

[jblues]

hogy and komet amplifiers put a gut shot picture in guitarplayer and from ther with a little work you can reverse engineer the schematic that's conjecture but legal since you are "guessing" at the part values from the slightly out of focus picture , but i a/b'd the 2 different builds to see the difference and the express is more dynamic and gives better harmonic sustain than the komet ...oh and it's not as loud.(if you use the 6v6 power tubes instead of the el34's) the komet has that neat hi lo sensativity switch ...looks like the volume setup on a dalas rangemaster with 2 set values to me(resistance on the plate is switched in and out of signal path while keeping plate resistance the same). front end of komet up to the hi lo switch inserted at the plate of the second gain stage (after tone network) is all the same as express(some express have cathode resistor on second stage like komet 1.5k instead of 2.7k gives more gain)... the diff hapens with the bits around the third gain stage...bigger dc blocking cap into 3rd stage with voltage divider there at grid input .1uF with 220k signal path with 330k res to grnd.
and then after the 3rd stage you have extra 200k resistor and dc blocking cap is not .1uF like express but .02 uF like marshall rest looks the same as express skipping the power rail differences.

[jblues]

oops forgot cathode bypass capacitor on first stage is differend looks like .1uF on the komet but is 25uF oin the express so komet is more marshall like there..in otherwords express is for a lead tone tailored for a lead tone and komet is set up for more of an express meets marshall type tone so you get other sounds perhaps for jazz or blues in that , if you can stand the volume...then you can buy an airbrake attenuator....lol
i built my own attenuator so my old 1986 version 50 small box marshall built is allways on ten lol i used the big ohmite ceramic hollowcore power resistors for that and a bridged t network instead of the lpad that the airbrake uses(read it's supposed to sound better ...since the speaker and the transformer see the same resistance looking into the network) that cost me like 150$ to build parts wise so the airbrake is priced about right.

[rhinson]

hello, jblues there is really nothing to guess at about the komet preamp board and pots, etc.---there are close up pics in the files section. rh

[Normster]

oops forgot cathode bypass capacitor on first stage is differend looks like .1uF on the komet but is 25uF oin the express so komet is more marshall like there..in otherwords express is for a lead tone tailored for a lead tone and komet is set up for more of an express meets marshall type tone so you get other sounds perhaps for jazz or blues in that , if you can stand the volume...then you can buy an airbrake attenuator....lol
i built my own attenuator so my old 1986 version 50 small box marshall built is allways on ten lol i used the big ohmite ceramic hollowcore power resistors for that and a bridged t network instead of the lpad that the airbrake uses(read it's supposed to sound better ...since the speaker and the transformer see the same resistance looking into the network) that cost me like 150$ to build parts wise so the airbrake is priced about right.

Can you share a few more details about your homebrew attenuator? I really want to try building one but without an example it's a bit over my head to figure out. I've seen diagrams where the series resistor is fixed and the shunt is variable, but also the other way around. Also, when calculating series resistance for the correct dB ratio, do you include the speaker in parallel with the shunt resistor, or just do the calc based on the shunt resistor alone? For such a simple gadget, it totally baffles me.

[gearhead]

Yes, this is an amp building forum. And no, I'm not a stooge of Hogy/Chimeboss or any other amp builder.

I'm just a big believer in (active) intellectual property rights. How would you feel if you came up with a unique design and was trying to make a living selling production versions, and someone on the side was copying it? I bet you'd be pissed. I sure would.

WRT Hiwatt, the Bluesbreaker, Vox, and any other "older" designs, that's a COMPLETELY different story. Those are all 30+ year old designs, and patents run out after 20 years in the States.

WRT to newer designs that aren't (in effect) being built anymore, that's greyish territory, but I definitely come down on the side of most on this forum - they are fair game. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.

Edited to add: I am very grateful for the Francesca Pics. This forum wouldn't be where it is without them.

[dobbhill]

My opinion only: building for my personal use is different from building for sale/profit/business. Hogy is trying to make a living, and I would like to believe that some of that business profits KF. I'm not hurting anyone's business by building a clone of "his" amp for my personal enjoyment, especially as I couldn't afford to buy one. It should be a compliment to the designer that I find his product worthy of cloning. Stepping down now.........
BTW, Hogy is a great player also, and I for one would like to invite him to post some clips of KF's (and his) designs on this forum, if it is appropriate.
D

[Allynmey]

Gearhead, that opinion is fine with me. My point is that we are here as amp builders/Home users. We build them for our use (at least I do). This is an amp builders forum where we can come and share ideas and talk about amps and what makes them tick. Nothing Hogy, or KF for that matter, does is magic or original. Maybe if they are that secretive and mystical they should join HADumble and goop there stuff and make people sign silly contracts. Maybe Omar should ask kit manufacturers to leave the forum (I don't subscribe to this train of thought though). It's always like this. Whenever something is fun or works well like a forum, someone will abuse what is available and instead of punishing the wrong doers, The hammer falls on those that aren't involved. I understand that Hogy wants to protect what he has and can threaten all he wants to scare. he fact is his amps are not patented for the reason that others aren't...he didn't invent the tube amp circuit. I said this before. If manufacturers want to keep business they have to introduce new and exciting products that people want to buy. Those products better be pretty damn exciting for the prices some people charge. BUT, and here is the big BUT, you cannot build a business built on unpatentable and non-original designs and expect to control the market. This is the problem I have with amp manufacturers who play hardball. They stand on quicksand and take shots at people. The circuits are not theirs to defend. Let me repeat...
The circuits are not THEIRS to defend!

I will not, at least on this forum, call my clone a K*omet clone. It is though! How is Hogy protecting his income from me misspelling a word in my discussions? I will never buy one from him and I will never sell an amp to someone and say it is a K*omet or a K*met clone. Poof! argument is now gone.


Allynmey

[gearhead]

I've now come full circle in a matter of hours here.

After my last post (and before reading yours) I hit the USPTO website and did a bunch of searches. From my amateur look, there appear to be NO patents for circuit designs on Badcat, Komet and/or Trainwreck amps. There ARE trademarks for the names, so . . .

All is fair game imho. Just don't use the names. lol.

Never mind.

[Normster]

Damn, Allyn...you even swayed ME with that one.

[ODwan]

I am debating on my next build. I have narrowed it down to a Trainwreck Express or a Bad Cat. I have never actually had the opportunity to hear a Train Wreck. I have played several Bad cat 30 Watt amps. Does any one have a link to a Bad Cat Layout or schematic.

Back to topic!
The Express and the Bad Cat amps are totally different animals. The Express is a 1Channel nonMV circuit with massive gain and loud!!! All controllable from the guitar.
The Hot Cat is a 2 channel MV circuit with a non NFB cathode biased EL34 output stage. The lead channel is an interesting unorthodox design in which all controls are highly interactive because they are wired sorta backwards messing with the tubes miller capitance and other circuit components. Pretty cool aproach imho!
The clean channel is kinda early Vox (think Matchless) with a single stage going into the PI. No tone control here. Channel switching is done via A-B box.

Timo

[Omar]

If manufacturers want to keep business they have to introduce new and exciting products that people want to buy. Those products better be pretty damn exciting for the prices some people charge. BUT, and here is the big BUT, you cannot build a business built on unpatentable and non-original designs and expect to control the market. This is the problem I have with amp manufacturers who play hardball. They stand on quicksand and take shots at people. The circuits are not theirs to defend. Let me repeat...
The circuits are not THEIRS to defend!

Allynmey,
So just to play devil's advocate - let's say I take a Marshall plexi circuit, tweak it and change a number of values. I come up with something that I think is unique but still in the vein of a plexi. I start an amp company and make some money off of it. Do cloners have a God-given right to make a schematic and publish it all over the internet because in your mind my circuit was not original enough? At what point does my circuit become original enough for you to say no? Are you the one who makes the decision for the amp building community what is fair game and what is not?

I've tried to keep this type of discussion reserved for email and PM's, but as the moderator I'm getting tired of all the grandstanding. Make my job easier and just stick to amp building and not the politics.

Rant mode off. Back to topic.

Omar

[Allynmey]

Omar, I don't believe that I have the right to anything! Really I don't! I'm just saying that discussing an uncopyrighted, unpatented circuit among amp builders isn't wrong. Especially when it is impossible, with the amount of combinations available, to claim you invented anything. Let alone scream at and threaten people discussing it online. No one owns the patent on tube circuits. Using your example, what if I took your build and made one more change, called it my own and started making money on it, who am I to say someone can't do the same and so on and so on!
Basically, I'm saying, be happy with the money you make off of someone elses research, and don't complain when someone does the same for money or not!!!

Back on subject...Compaq, here you go.