Trainwreck Express - Speakers

[Littlewyan]

I'm trying to find better speakers to use with my Express. I currently use Eminence GB12s which sound great except they have a solid bottom end which is quite boomy when playing on the low E and also stays quite clean. Its not horrible by any means but when playing songs that need chords on the low E palm muted I feel like I'm blowing the audience's heads off!

So as I have a Marshall 1936 2x12 I tried the Celestion Creamback G12M-65s and I hate them. They seem to have an upper mid spike and a lot of high end in the closed back cab that dominates everything. If I remove the back panel from the cab they get better but still not amazing. The only way I found I could get the lovely Greenback snarl is if I put a blanket over the cab and put ear plugs in. So not great.

So I ask all of you, what are you using an alternative to the Pre Rola G12Ms? I'd love to have Scumbacks but living in the UK shipping is $111 for me plus tax/duty. I'm basically looking for that amazing mid range snarl that Glen gets from his Express.

[norburybrook]

Ryan,

I have a pair of EVM 12 force speakers sat in a box here. They're a very neutral high powered speaker.

You're more than welcome to try them in your cab if you're passing south London at any time.



Marcus

[Littlewyan]

Thanks Marcus. Don't think I'm due to go to London any time soon though. Am I reading the spec for those speakers correctly? a 7.3KG Magnet?!! They must weigh a tonne!

[sliberty]

I've never loved the 1936. I tried three sets of speakers in the one I had (G12-75's, Emi Private jacks, and something else that I can't remember), and they all sounded scooped to me. So, personally, I wouldn't go by that cabinet.

I've used a Marshall 4x12 loaded with Black Backs, and it was really nice. I currently use a StageCraft 2x12 loaded with an EVM 12L and a JBL K-120. I love this cabinet and speaker combination with everything I have thrown at it.

These days, I always lean towards neutral sounding speakers/cab. I prefer to tweak the amp.

[norburybrook]

Thanks Marcus. Don't think I'm due to go to London any time soon though. Am I reading the spec for those speakers correctly? a 7.3KG Magnet?!! They must weigh a tonne!

They're not nearly as heavy as the full EVM 12L , the force series are the budget versions so the magnet is lighter.


Marcus

[Littlewyan]

Do you mean the G12-65s sliberty? The Emi Private Jacks are supposed to be extremely similar to the GB12s, the only difference being the private jacks have slightly more high end.

There are 2 Black Back G12Ms on Ebay at the moment for roughly £200. Was very tempted, except they're 16Ohm and I need 8Ohm.

Ah sorry I didn't see the lighter version. Still that is one hell of a magnet. I already think my cab is too heavy .

[sliberty]

Not the 65's, the G12T-75's (I forgot to type the T above). I personally really don't like those speakers in most situations, although I heard them in a combo once and it wasn't as bad.

[Littlewyan]

Yeah those are the speakers that came in mine originally and I didn't like them. However I saw a clip of a JTM50 being played through them and they sounded amazing. Mind you I think thats another Celestion speaker that has changed slightly over the years. I've heard a much older one sound very different to a brand new one.

The G12-65 is another speaker I am sort of looking at. I believe it was another attempt at creating a higher wattage Greenback. Apparently its quite a decent speaker.

[Colossal]

Ryan,

I have a '69 slant cab loaded with two Scumback M75 greenback equivalents on top and two Scumback M55 G12H30 equivalents on the bottom. Sounds amazing with the Express. I wish you weren't 5,000 miles away.

[Littlewyan]

I know it sucks. You guys have all the cool stuff over there .

I think its going to be between the Celestion G12M Greenback RI and the Celestion Heritage G12M.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GLVcvwq4C8

Interestingly in this clip the Heritage G12M does get a bit fizzy when pushed whereas the Greenback RI doesn't. I know Glen has mentioned this before. I don't think either of those speakers are bad, they both seem to be similar to the original in different ways. Obviously the Scumback in this clip sounds the closest to the original. Then again we have to remember here that we are comparing a brand new speaker to a 48 year old one so there will be differences!

[geetarpicker]

Have you ever tried original pulsonic cone G12M speakers? They don't have to be pre rola, as the early rola versions still had the same cone. All mine are actually Rola stickered versions from '71-'72. Almost all my YouTube videos are with these. Still they need to be in a good sounding cab, and I've had some (even vintage Marshall basket weave) cabs that were not as good sounding as others no matter what speakers were installed.

What are the other details of your guitar chain? There might be some other things that are making your wreck sound bright and peaky. Heck even longer higher capacitance cables and even thicker grill cloth (or added felt) can make a noticeable difference, let alone amp and tube tweaks.

[Littlewyan]

I haven't had the privilege no. I don't know anyone local to me that has those speakers unfortunately.

I play a 2014 Gibson Les Paul Classic which has the Classic 57 Pickups in it and I plug directly into the amp, no pedals. I use a Coily Bullet Cable that I think is 30ft long. The Speaker Cabinet is a Marshall 1936 2x12 with the standard black grill cloth and is a JCM900 era cab so I think its MDF construction.

With my previous speakers (which I'll be reinstalling) all of my amps sounded pretty good. My only issue with them was the boomy low end they had when palm muting or playing chords on the low E.

I tried these Creambacks in my rehearsal room tonight which is quite large and the only time they sounded ok was when I stood to the side of the cabinet. But even then they were missing the snarly low mids that I hear coming out of most Greenbacks in clips. I had the cab on the stage and I was on the floor but then I always did with my previous speakers and they were fine.

[geetarpicker]

More info on the Express build?

Using an Attenuator? (I find the popular Airbrakes to be almost my least favorite due to the brightness they have, but removing the bright cap in the att itself helps)

[Littlewyan]

The Express is the standard circuit on the forum. I'm using the 6PS Coupling Caps, JJ Cap Cans for the HT Filters and 1W Carbon Film resistors. PT is a Hammond that gives the same HT as the standard Pacific and the OT is the Pacific part from RJ. Pre Amp valves are V1 Tung Sol 12AX7, V2 JJ ECC83 MG, V3 Tung Sol 12AX7 and the power valves are TAD EL34B-STR.

I am using a custom Airbrake which gives less of an impedance mistmatch than the standard. With mine you set the amp to 4Ohms and can plug any speaker into it and have no more than a 2:1 mismatch. With a 4Ohm speaker on the max attenuation setting the amp will see 9Ohms. I've done some testing and it adds a small bit of brightness that is only just noticeable (to my ears anyway). Obviously the bedroom control gets very fizzy but I never use that at rehearsal. Even then with the previous speakers the bedroom control was usable at home but with the new speakers it sounds terrible.

I should also add that my Marshall JTM50 doesn't sound good at all through these speakers and my JTM1 sounds ok. One thing I did find is these speakers sound much better if I remove the cab back panel, but unfortunately it can't be left off as the jack socket is on the back and it does make the bass a bit too soft. I do wonder if I've got a faulty pair but the cones are moving freely enough without scratching and they test ok with a multimeter. I'm going to reinstall my old speakers today to compare to make sure its not just me going mad.

[Scumback Speakers]

Are the Tung Sol preamp tubes the new construction models, or the 50/60's NOS type? I find preamp tubes make a huge difference in my Express and I've gone to the expense of finding the old ones. Pretty sure I'm using a Mullard 12AX7 in this clip, though.

My limited pentatonic wanking starts at 3:31. I'm using an Orville LP Custom with the Express running through a single M75 65w speaker in my adjustable back 1x12 cab . The Alex Attenuator (now the Scumback DBL attenuator) is not in use, it was there for others to try out. I had the back of the cab open about 4 inches.

I learned this song's chord changes on the fly after they started it, so forgive the clams I made!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pr1ol8 ... er&list=UL