Beating a dead horse no last time...

[selloutrr]

I had this thought while I was drinking, a spark of creative genious the 'ol seagrams is... Anyway, If a person was to clone an original trainwreck same parts same date codes materials wire etc. What would prevent it from being a true wreck.
Now hold on KF didn't voice the clone true! But he did voice the amp you would be cloning and didn't Ken use tubes to do the majority of the voicing? And those would be the only varriable in the mix everything is measurable and can be duplicated. Ok so I guess what I'm getting at is any original trainwreck that has replaced the tubes no longer a true trainwreck? Can you see where I'm going with this?...

Think it threw.... I wonder how many TW have been retubed in there 20+ year life? Would they not be the same as a direct clone?

[redshark]

It depends, if the amp owner has a little bit of common sense would probably measure negative voltage and current in the amp after delivered from Ken. That means that if the tubes needed to be replaced you can always get the same pair and bias them with same negative voltage and current settings. We are talking about express here with adjustable bias.
Liverpool and Rocket are cathoded bias so all you need is a matched quartet of el-84's.
The tricky part comes with preamp tubes. Here it depends how good is the ear of the amp owner to get same brand of tubes that sound similar although one more time is rare to have a preamp tubes malfunctions, specialy if Ken used NOS in the amps.
Many old fender still use same preamp tubes. Trainwreck is not an exception for that.

[ckpop]

If using exact NOS parts, tubes and factoring in inconsistencies from the parts manufacture. There is no reason a clone can't be made to sound like a real TW. On the other hand no two amps sound 100% exactly the same and thats what makes some jump to the conclusion that it's not the real deal but a clone. It's the personal touch and working until it's tuned just right but it can be done without a doubt.
Even Ken had to deal with some trainwrecks that maybe he thought was not as good as the last one he built, but it was still a trainwreck.
I'm sure with all the builders out there some have hit dead on with a real wreck but if it's not out there in all the right places nobody will ever take notice.

[Structo]

Yeah, it's an interesting proposition.
We have discussed this to death in the Dumble section.
I think the main conclusion was due to tolerances of components that it is hard to make a true clone of an amp unless you totally reverse engineered the amp by taking it apart piece by piece and measured every parameter possible.

Because unless you clone the amp down to the last molecule, it won't be a true clone at all.

You can get mighty close and the tone will be mighty close, but.....

Reminds me of a story from the 60's, I believe it was.

A Russian pilot had defected to Japan and landed his late model Mig jet fighter at a US base.
Of course we granted the pilot asylum in order to debrief him about the Russian military.
Russian was obviously upset about the whole affair and demanded the return of the aircraft and pilot.
Well, our boys in the Air Force delayed but finally granted Russia's wishes by returning the jet sans the pilot.

When Russia came to take the aircraft back they were baffled when they arrived and didn't see the plane.
The American officer in charge pointed towards some huge crates and replied it's right there.
Yep, they had completely disassembled the jet down to the last nut and bolt and studied the design to the Nth degree.

Russia was not amused.

[Scumback Speakers]

I think I posted this same thought about reverse engineering awhile back.

The real test is to have an original Wreck (built by Ken) and the clone side by side, and do definitive sound tests....right?

[ckpop]

Yes and No Jim. Which amp that ken built are you compairing the clone to ? Remember like speakers and you know this, you can reverse engineer but there are factors out of your control in the process also. I think the best test to start with is not at first putting a clone next to ken's work but take several of the same from ken and see what is different sounding in each.

I have built amps with the same parts, dead on measurment or less than 1% tolerance and they are slightly different sounding. If I buy a transformer from someone I don't know where the supply of copper came from that week when they were made, out of my control. Ken dealt with the same problem

[Scumback Speakers]

Agreed, except I had 400 speakers to choose from, some of which were autopsied by Ted Weber, so the real problem would be getting several real Wrecks, then seeing if the one selected can be autopsied. My guess is the owner will say no. (I know I'd say no!)

Then you get into all of the material variables, as you've pointed out. Those will be crucial as well.

[FYL]

Reminds me of a story from the 60's, I believe it was.

1976 actually.

A Russian pilot had defected to Japan and landed his late model Mig jet fighter at a US base.

Viktor Ivanovich Belenko, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 Foxbat.

[ampmike]

Hey Guys,When i think of how a trainwreck should sound my mental reference goes to GK on youtube,He did such a great job at showing the range and dynamics of the amp.I would love to here his clones,I think he plays them when he tours,but He dosent do much in the NY area.He is the man with the answeres.He can do the true test.My guess is they all sound different but none sound bad ,out of his 4 amps.

[M Fowler]

I am quite sure that the Hall brothers, Allynmey, Ron Worley and others did such a taste test in 2006 or 2007.

What about all the people on this forum that have built close to exact TW amps in which all I hear is no clone could ever sound as good as Ken F's. amps

The people that make such a statement have nothing to base it on. Perhaps one day we will have a thousand TAG Trainwreck clones in one large room competing against an original.

How about Billy Yates new TW type amp line he has out

[Jana]

Are we talking about amps or god? I sense a new religion in the process of forming.

As for the tubes: I suspect it is much more than finding the same brand of NOS tubes that KF used in an amp. More than tweaking the bias. More than plugging in a preamp tube that is quiet.

Just because a tube is NOS does not mean that it is somehow has a magical, consistent tonal quality.

Remember, the tubes would interact with later stages and alter the "tone" from previous stages.

Is it possible to imitate and build a TW amp?

My opinion is no. KF knew what he was listening for when he tweaked. He had a lifetime of his own unique experiences that shaped his tastes for good or bad. No one else can duplicate that. That isn't a judgement call or a statement that is meant to elevate KF to the ranks of god--it just is.

Is it possible to create and build a (insert your name here) amp that is personalized for your tastes?

Absolutely.

[ckpop]

Jana, I agree with your statement about the tubes and a lifetime of experience in the process of tuning. You can't replace one persons set of ears and judgements that they make in the process. Ken knew what he was looking and listening for to get his results.

The part in my opinion can anyone do exactly what ken did with the above statements......NO

Can anyone 100% copy an amp I make ....... NO
Can you make two amps that sound 100% identical......NO
Did Ken amps sound identical with eveyone he made.....NO

Can others make a TW that sound just as good as a real Trainwreck.....Yes but no two are identical

It is that thin line of seperating what ken did personally to fine tune his TW and Factors that seperate one amp from another that we don't have control over. Ask this question if Ken was still building amp Today can you say 100% they would sound exactly like his earlier amps ? As time went on Ken was having a tougher and tougher time trying to get the results he wanted because of part suppliers not being consistant.

We will never know the answer if a clone is as good as real wreck because right now we are more or less just comparing a clone to maybe a few real Trainwrecks. It's apples and oranges without knowing if ken would pick the apple or the orange.

[MCK]

Back to original question... If an original TW gets retubed can it still be considered original as it is no longer voiced by Ken? How about a re-cap job? Can its original nature be preserved through a re-cap?

[MCK]

Viktor Ivanovich Belenko, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 Foxbat.

Thanks to your pointer I was able to read up on this story ...

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/mig-25_foxbat.pl

Interesting bit below... Wonder what tubes they used!

* The majority of the on-board avionics were based on vacuum-tube technology, not solid-state electronics. Seemingly obsolete, vacuum tubes were actually more tolerant of temperature extremes, thereby removing the need for providing complex environmental controls inside the avionics bays. In addition, the vacuum tubes were easy to replace in remote northern airfields where sophisticated transistor parts may not have been readily available. As with most Soviet aircraft, the MiG-25 was designed to be as rugged as possible. Also, the use of vacuum tubes makes the aircraft's systems more resistant to an electromagnetic pulse, for example after a nuclear blast.

[BTF]

This type of dilemma is why owning vintage instruments and amps can be a two-edged sword. If the item is just going to sit, no problem. If you're going to USE it, what happens when you must retube it, re-cap it or scratch it?

One thing that's surprised me as I've read about Fischer is that-at least according to Dr Z and the fellow at Thunderfunk amps- he allowed others to build Trainwrecks and then sold them as Fischer amps. Apparently he'd tweak them a bit to make them "authentic". Whether this is true or not you posters would know better than I.

I'd hate to think I'd shelled out major bucks for a faux Trainwreck!