Are you looking at a single part for the AB test or location or are you taking in to consideration the sum result of all the parts in combination.
The results are the same.
To me it is how each part reacts with each other for the end result
Agreed, but ia good Monte-Carlo sim can take care of cumulated tolerances and explain systemic differences, if any.
do all your caps have leads that are copper or steel
I only use small components with copper or copper-clad leads for thermal and solderability questions, with the exception of some screen or cathode R's mounted point to point where rigidity is of paramount importance - then steel-clad is the best option.
then take that effect of adding 7 caps in a circuit.
Been there, done that too. Same resuslts.
The same with wire, one small wire no difference but add the lenght of the wire for the whole amp you get a different overall result.
Looking back at this thread I think I may have started this brew ha ha by saying that Ken claimed he could hear the difference in the dye used in PVC wiring.
KF had a wicked sense of humor. He was also one of the greatest amp designers around and could build great sounding stuff using mundane parts. No fancy schmitzy glitzy components in TW amps...
Somehow I suspect that much of the tonal changes from changing caps may stem from tolerance variations. Some of the more popular caps are 5%, others are 10%,- same with a lot of the NOS resistors...
Smaller caps may be even worse, not to mention 'lytics.....
Changing a single cap may then shift the value as much as 10% or even 20% at worst... most certainly audible...
Have any of you tried simulating the response within, say +/- 3% or 7% to stay within reasonable limits of component tolerances?
Do any of you really measure component values when changing?
Here's one I read a couple weeks ago on speaker cables.
From "Loudspeakers For music recording and reproduction", Philip Newell and Keith Holland, Focal Press, 2006, ISBN: 978-0-240-52014-8
Anecdotal at best.
Howso? Because they're published or because you read the article and have something specific to say on the content?
On the subject of hookup wire, I don't think Teflon leads to "brightness" it's the silver plating on the wire. Pure copper with Teflon sounds great, to me.
How could silver plating have a "sound" ?
How could it not?
BTW, PTFE can't easily be extruded atop copper. Every consumer grade
PTFE-coated cable uses plated copper.
Do any of you really measure component values when changing?
no just put them in a sack, shake it, reach in and grab one,and the winner IS..
Yes i would say most measure parts before using them.
So.. lets try this, do you think useing a polypropolyene .02 [measured]
compared to a polyester .02 will sound the same? Do you think the mica sound different than the ceramic?
There is truth to saying that components of equal value are equivalent when the measure out the same on the bench. This means outside the system that is the amplifier circuit. Theoretically, any component of the same value should perform the same. Theoretically, two amps built exactly the same way but using different types of signal caps should perform exactly the same way. Theoretically, we can say all sorts of things, yet it's still theory. We do not live in a theoretical world. The reality is the resultant system, for us, a completed amp. From this, we can hear the differences with our ears, but with no 2 sets of ears being the same, means that tone is purely subjective. Can differences in tone be captured and tested objectively? Yes they can, but no one I know is going to go through that expense to prove that what they hear is real. If YOU can hear the differences, it's real to you.
With all this said, I have built many amps that are identical in components with my own 2 hands. Identical in layout, and all components measured with specification (no greater than 5% tolerance). Do they all sound identical? Absolutely not. Very similar, but I can hear differences between every one of them. Is it the small variations in component values? Is it small variations in layout (a few mm here, a few mm there)? The variables are too great to pin it down and make it a science.
Now, that statement about wire, caps, resistors, etc., not having a sound. Yes, each component on it's own has no sound. True, they don't emit sound on their own. However, put that component into a system that is designed to amplify sound, and the characteristics of that component does effect the system. I'll dumb down this example. Let's use baseball as an easy to understand example. Can you tell the difference, without looking, whether a batter hit the ball with a wooden bat vs. an aluminum bat?
dartanion wrote: I'll dumb down this example. Let's use baseball as an easy to understand example. Can you tell the difference, without looking, whether a batter hit the ball with a wooden bat vs. an aluminum bat?
No, but I can tell how many ounces the bat weighs, and how long it is.
Seriously, I recently rewired an express build with all 20awg solid core copper wire. The tone improved noticeably. Not nearly as harsh as when it had silver-plated/stranded copper wire. Don't know why; it just sounds better. Perhaps the smearing affect? I won't go back to the other wire. Silliness.
"Don't know how he did it, but I was blind, but now I see!"
Last edited by rawnster on Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dartanion wrote: I'll dumb down this example. Let's use baseball as an easy to understand example. Can you tell the difference, without looking, whether a batter hit the ball with a wooden bat vs. an aluminum bat?
No, but I can tell how many ounces the bat weighs, and how long it is.
Well Ron, if the software business doesn't work out, you have a future as a Carnival sideshow
dartanion wrote: I'll dumb down this example. Let's use baseball as an easy to understand example. Can you tell the difference, without looking, whether a batter hit the ball with a wooden bat vs. an aluminum bat?
No, but I can tell how many ounces the bat weighs, and how long it is.
Well Ron, if the software business doesn't work out, you have a future as a Carnival sideshow
I know.....I've been watching way too much HERO'S.
ah but can you tell if its ash or bamboo,maple,birch or hickory, or if the metal bat was composite, or titanium. then you could tell if they were cheating,useing a banned bat. but then again may depend on the inning,and how many beers were drank.
like those bats, caps have many things than can be different between them, the spec sheet may tell most of this,type leads, vibration effect of frequency,temp, on and on. Some may say, not for audio, but yet people use them.
Howso? Because they're published or because you read the article and have something specific to say on the content?
This is a set of graphs as useful as a PowerPoint presentation by a guy with a tie who's about to try to sell you something you don't need or want.
If these "tests" had any significance, the full protocol would be detailed, the tests peer reviewed and the results published in a reference publication such as the AES Journal.
How could silver plating have a "sound" ?
How could it not?
You're the one stating that silver plated copper sounds bright, the burnden of proof is on your shoulders...
BTW, PTFE can't easily be extruded atop copper. Every consumer grade PTFE-coated cable uses plated copper.
It's out there.
Then it's not consumer-grade. Care to share with us the actual references of the wire you mention? Is it Axon IBC?
