Beating a dead horse no last time...

[redshark]

I love JTM45, the problem is how many db's you lose when you try to clean it rolling your guitar volume down.
That is what makes the express a unique performing amp.

[talbany]

I love JTM45, the problem is how many db's you lose when you try to clean it rolling your guitar volume down.
That is what makes the express a unique performing amp.

Yeah,, No doubt about it.. Something about the JTM/Plexi design that when you get that cathode follower moving there is a thicker throatier dimension to them that to me really compliments a Strat.. The wrecks get thick as well but with single coils just not the same if you get my drift..That's sort of my appeal..
You can help that roll back issue on the Marshalls as well.. Just lose the grid resistors..

Tony

[Structo]

The "voicing" is a sum of parts thing... which includes the components of the guitar, playing style of the player and the "ear" of the listener...far too many variables to think tubes or caps are the only factor.

Ken may very well have had a certain sound he wanted his amps to achieve from a certain guitar and playing style... but once you start deviating from that I say be true to the tone in your head and tweak to get it.

All valid points given.

This post hits on what I had in mind. I didn't know Mr. Fischer and I don't know anything about his techniques or methods of voicing an amp.

But, the whole equation must be present to in fact "voice" the amp for the customer.

If I had the technical knowledge to do such a thing, I would definitely have the guitarist over after the amp is built as close as I could get it before test driving it.
Then I would have the guy come over with his guitar and guitar cables he will use and have him play while I tinkered behind the curtain.
That really is the only way you are going to be able to do it.
Without that you are just guessing and the amp would have to go back and forth across state lines or border to border many times before it is "right".
Rumors abound, hearsay is embellished.

I think the folklore around Alexander Dumble is even curiouser.
Supposedly he would "borrow" the customers guitar to voice the amp.
But as stories have been told, sometimes Mr. Dumbles delivery dates left something to be desired so I don't know how true that one is. I can't imagine being without your #1 for extended periods of time would go over.
But as most of us have learned, it has a lot to do with the player and his hands to how the amp is going to sound.

So whether or not Ken voiced his amps by changing values of caps and resistors, or did it merely by subbing various tubes until he was satisfied, the magic happened and the happy customer was on his way with his new "custom" amp.

What I wonder about Kens amps is, there have been a lot of techs inside those amps over the years. They weren't gooped or camouflaged so the components are visible.
How much did the cap and resistor values change from amp to amp?
Did Trudy have a 22uF bypass on the first stage but Debbie had a 25uF?

So do the component values change from Express to Express or did he mostly "voice" them with careful tube selection?

[IMG:99:57]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/ ... dhorse.gif[/img]

[talbany]

Tom
The guy who does all our demos at shows was really good friends with Ken..Ken was nice enough to give us pointers when we first started out.. My friend would go over to Ken's an play amps that he had built for some customers.. He remarked that there were a few he built for some shred type players that he and Ken didn't really care for but that's what the customer wanted.. No doubt Dumble did the same.. Part of the deal when your doing customs for clients I guess..

Tony

[Colossal]

So do the component values change from Express to Express or did he mostly "voice" them with careful tube selection?

This was the jist of my post about the nature of "voicing": how much variation is there in the component values across the limited gene pool of the Express population or was it primarily the same schematic amp after amp with tube selection being the biggest variable. We know there is some variability among transformers KF used. But are the vast majority of Express amps Ken built primarily Kelly 90 with some 5-10% difference made up by a few cap and/or resistor changes? Not something we're likely to ever know, but the question was mostly to define what makes an Express and is the Express "voice" primarily something that has been well defined by the few originals (such as Glen's amp) we've been lucky enough to hear and backed up to a large degree by a larger pool of clones. As Dana said, somewhere out there is the best and worst original Express as well as best and worst clone on the tails of both distributions.

[selloutrr]

i do miss the warm preamps and dimension of the Midas XL4 and Heritage 3000. I spend most of my time on the road behind a PM5D since they are the standard.. insert card no brainer. Yamaha has always made a nice interface but the consoles have always sounded like you are mixing threw a wet towel. At least I still have the SSL 4072G+ and API legacy in the studio. Protools HD is a nice tool, but no replacement for real outboard gear and 2" tape!

mixing on a midas (or any analog console) is art, digit mixing boards (even the XL8) or inside the box is more technical then musical... so much for art here comes science.

the weakest link in digital is the price point converters. until they stop hitting a price point or the parts come down digital is going to be well digital. there is a german mastering company that makes a single channel converter for $10K each way.. so Analog to digital $10K digital to analog $10K. it's not perfect or maybe it's to perfect but it sure is a night and day difference from a digidesign or apogee converter.

ok back to the task at hand....

I still feel this can be measured maybe not by smaart but still it can be broken down plotted and recreated. I understand what you are trying to say about how it responds but if you are using the correct parts they should respond very much the same. the output frequencies at that point is the amps limitations. I think you would be surprised how close the two amps sound if you tried to frequency match with date code correct parts.
Where i disregard who the amp responds is.. that depends on the player and what is plugged in, far more then the amp. my 57, and 68 goldtops w P-90s sounds dif. then my 68, 73, 81 customs with humbuckers. they all sound dif then my stratocasters or gretsch... etc. then any guitar sounds dif when a pro player plays.... but that is not the limitations of the amp just how the amp is being used.

i think i'm on to something i might not have every detail worked out but it's at least worth a try. sure beats slapping some parts together and hoping.

[Roe]

I love JTM45, the problem is how many db's you lose when you try to clean it rolling your guitar volume down.
That is what makes the express a unique performing amp.

... You can help that roll back issue on the Marshalls as well.. Just lose the grid resistors..

Tony

removing the grid resistors will not help at all

[M Fowler]

Colossal:

Trainwrecks seem to have changed in time as with any other amp line out there.

It has been noted many times the differences in certain TW amps compared to the Kelly design. Probably that way due to customers wants/wishes for certain tone.

I think PCB is the way to go, huh.

[dark]

...Back in 1991 I received my Express amp with spare tubes. I made order for Rocket amp, but Kenny said that he has problem to source good components for Rocket amps, especially tubes...
"Without Mullard EL84 output and rectifier tubes it's not the same amp..."
As we now know he made only ten Rockets (+/- 1).

My Express amp had:

V1: Tungsram
V2: Ei
V3: Tungsram

V4: RFT/Siemens
V5: RFT/Siemens

Dark

Rock on!

[M Fowler]

Dark,

Maybe you already have extra stock of tubes but what happens when you run out of RFT/Siemens, Tungsrams and and EI?

Out of the current production tubes do you find any suitable for a Trainwreck amp?

Thanks in advance

Mark

[FYL]

"Without Mullard EL84 output and rectifier tubes it's not the same amp..."

High quality NOS GZ34's can still be easily found and a selected quad of Russian 6П14П-EB (6P14P-EV) gives outstanding results.

[dark]

Dark,

Maybe you already have extra stock of tubes but what happens when you run out of RFT/Siemens, Tungsrams and and EI?

Out of the current production tubes do you find any suitable for a Trainwreck amp?

Thanks in advance

Mark

Mark,

My Trainwreck amp is now at Ultrasound NYC... I have a few other amps, '69 100W Marshall, '66 Fender DeLuxe Rev, AND Ken's personal Concorde...

Anyway, 22 years ago I supplied Kenny with Serbian Ei tubes, he liked Ecc 83 the best, EL 84 were so-so and EL 34 were awful. I sent many Ecc83's...

As for my Express and tubes, it sounded the best with tubes Kenny sent! One day I tried MANY NOS tubes, I mean MANY tubes, but "Kim" sounded healthy, balanced, rich, 3D, 5.1...only with tubes which Kenny sent. I liked only some old Amperex Ecc 83 in V1 position.

Now I have only 3-5 pieces of those old Ei ecc 83 tubes believe it or not!

In my active playing life I NEVER played Russian or Chinese tubes. Now I play just for fun and have Mullards, RFT, Brimars in my amps…and some =C= 34’s just for backup.

Dark

Rock on!

[M Fowler]

Dark and FYL

Thanks for the information much appreciated especially since I only find NOS or good quality old tubes very seldom and have not ordered any on line. I have just been trying to work with what is out there right now.

Today I open the mail box and Vintage Guitar has an article on old EL84 tubes nice.

[mclmk8d]

I bought 2 quads of Saratov EL84s from Terry, and a month or so ago, I found 3 Ei ECC83 tubes on ebay for $34...One of them is in my Marshall Superlead 100 in V2 or V3, I don't remember. I have 2 in a drawer next to me. What is even more interesting is that I opened my son's Orange AD30 HTC for the 1 st to put in a Brimar in v1, and what is in there but 4 Ei EL84s!...I was surprised; the previous owner new his tubes

[M Fowler]

Yeah I really need to do some high quality tube shopping