Super Wreck???

[GainMaster]

Guys,

Trying to steer this back to the topic of the pre amp, I'm surprised at the total number of gain stages and seemingly minimal interstage attenuation. Soldano (and others) have been able to achieve the desired distortion, touch response and effects loop using the same amount of tubes. In my experience, using more than 4 cascaded gain stages seems to add more noise than tonal qualities.

Ironically, this number of gainstages and tone topology are about the farthest thing from a TW and the only fault I see is calling it a super wreck.

Anyhow, anything done to enhance ones knowledge can not be frowned upon, even if it is in a language (metal) that we don't understand, or at least practice anymore .

Peace,

John

The number of gain stages was required to get the preamp into numetal teritory gain wise. The lack of attenuation is because the last 4 stages are 12au7 instead of 12ax7 so less attenuation is needed. The preamp itself has a gain of about a million.

I appologize for the title of this thread if it offends anyone. Was just hoping to get someones attention. I did put in the questionmarks as a disclaimer.

Brian

[Fischerman]

I think there are things to be learned from trying to get a ton of 'metal-type' distortion...even if you never play that style or use that much distortion. As soon as Gainmaster mentioned 'preventing blocking distortion' he got my attention...I think many of us have experienced varying degrees of unwanted blocking distortion in our builds (Trainwreck, Dumble, and others) and have tried almost everything including pulling our hair out to get rid of it or at least tame it. I'm not saying I'll use this method to elimnate it but...identifying and understanding the problem is half the battle right?

I keep thinking I'll post a clip sometime but I'm never satisfied with my amps and my playing sucks.

And besides, I loved early VH, Ozzy, Sabbath, Yngwie and lots of other 'metal bands' of the late 70s and early 80s...and let's face it...some of the early metal tones were pretty bad (eg - as much as I LOVE Randy's playing...his tone on the early Ozzy records was pretty harsh and buzzy).

[John_P_WI]

Brian,

My mistake, I didn't see the 12au7 in my browser. I have been interested in the dc drive since I first heard the Melissa project, but have not prototyped it. Way too many other irons in the fire.

I'm still interested in how well the noise is contolled with that many cascaded stages. Also how well do the tone controls work after that many gain stages and level of distortion?

Keep tweaking, might get some cool violin like tones with the right power amp / speaker cab???

John

[GainMaster]

Brian,

My mistake, I didn't see the 12au7 in my browser. I have been interested in the dc drive since I first heard the Melissa project, but have not prototyped it. Way too many other irons in the fire.

I'm still interested in how well the noise is contolled with that many cascaded stages. Also how well do the tone controls work after that many gain stages and level of distortion?

Keep tweaking, might get some cool violin like tones with the right power amp / speaker cab???

John

The background hiss is minimal since I used Vishay low noise resistors in the signal path and plate resistors. Can't vouch for other builds though. The treble and mid work great. The bass pot is no worse than the standard FMV stack. It was originally designed with a parallel first stage and a blend pot, but the blend pot did nothing due to the signal having to pass through so many stages.

Brian

[lastwinj]

did you DC the heaters, especially to the 12ax7? if not, do it. should get rid of that buzz.

germ

[GainMaster]

did you DC the heaters, especially to the 12ax7? if not, do it. should get rid of that buzz.

germ

The heaters are not DC but I don't get any 60hz hum from them. Your saying DC heaters will reduce buzzyness? What about ultra fast diodes in the power section. I've heard they reduce it?

Brian

[harryk]

I am a little suprised of reactions my writing caused here. In Finland we are maybe a little straight to say our opinions of everything and it is a learning point for us how to discuss in a US disussion forum. I am here because I learn every time more and more of making the best sounding tube amps in the world. KF was one of these gurus to show the way. I have built some amps according AX84 forum ideas with great results. I hope that I learn someday to understand also dropped D sounds to make tube amps in Finland to young players who want to have at least 5-6 gain stages in their amps. Regards Harry Bluetone

[nickt]

I am a little suprised of reactions my writing caused here. In Finland we are maybe a little straight to say our opinions of everything and it is a learning point for us how to discuss in a US disussion forum. I am here because I learn every time more and more of making the best sounding tube amps in the world. KF was one of these gurus to show the way. I have built some amps according AX84 forum ideas with great results. I hope that I learn someday to understand also dropped D sounds to make tube amps in Finland to young players who want to have at least 5-6 gain stages in their amps. Regards Harry Bluetone

Sorry you got blasted for agreeing with me harryk.

This forum is inclusive which is great - no one will be tolerated saying "you suck as a human being because you like ***" - however it definitely is elitist - the bulk of the forum is about building on the two most elite amps on the planet.

The fact that folks will say "A is better than B because ..." (without starting a fight) is why this forum is so informative. Add to that some folks post self evidently excellent clips illustrating their words with real examples means we all know what we're talking about.

I've never heard a self evidently good metal clip - all I've heard is dry, lifeless and fatiguing to listen to (and that includes 70's metal precursors and 80's shredders).

As I stated before I'm glad that there is very little metal discussion on this board - personal opinion - this is a good thing.

GainMaster - thanks for posting but I think the SuperWreck belongs in Technical Discussion. I know you're a guy with much respect at AX84 and I'm suprised your post here is so "preliminary" given your rep. One thought - are you asking for assistance with the Lead II to make it more Wreck like?

cheers
Nick

[nickt]

I am, however aching to hear some ODS clips that are something other than playing a little out over another funky vamp. I think the ODS has a lot to offer tonally beyond that realm but it doesn't seem like anyone takes it much beyond there and some straight ahead blues.

Have to agree - I love dogears clips but we need more. Obviously I haven't posted any clips yet (which may be a good thing ). I'd also like to hear the TW played more in the middle of it's range.

I'll post some clips sometime and GainMaster can diss them

[LeftyStrat]

Here are some scope pics of what is going on in a Wreck. http://home.polstra.com/amps/wreck1/scope/

Thanks Brian for posting that. It proves some of what I said, but also rebukes some notions floating around my noggin.

I do take issue with some of his descriptions. Flattening of the waveform, even with rounded corners is clipping not compression. It is "soft" clipping as opposed to "hard" clipping, and it is why we all love tubes. You can call it compressed, in that it exhibits the sustain characteristics of classic compression, but since it is modifying the shape of the waveform (and not just the amplitude as in true compression), it is still clipping.

It would be cool to record the signal at the output of the 10k stage vs the OT output for each of the scope pics.

But those scope pics also prove something Dave Funk said that I thought might be hype; that in the wreck the order of distortion is power tubes first, then pi, then preamp. We don't see PI pics, but the power tubes are definitely clipping hard before the third stage starts to soft clip.

Figure 4 might hold some very interesting clues into the Wreck magic. The power tubes are hard clipping, but as the soft clipping of the third stage increases, it alters the duty cycle of the output waveform. If you've ever played with a synth pulse wave and altered the pulse width, you know it produces this pleasing sort of filtering/phasing type sound.

So as the amplitude into the third stage changes the soft clipping, it also alters the duty cycle of the almost square waveform of the output tubes, altering the harmonic content of the output.

So rather than a static harmonic content on heavy clipping, you get a sweeping harmonic content based on the signal before the hard clipping stage.

Either I've had one too many eggnogs, or that is frickin genius.

[benoit]

I am a little suprised of reactions my writing caused here. In Finland we are maybe a little straight to say our opinions of everything and it is a learning point for us how to discuss in a US disussion forum. I am here because I learn every time more and more of making the best sounding tube amps in the world. KF was one of these gurus to show the way. I have built some amps according AX84 forum ideas with great results. I hope that I learn someday to understand also dropped D sounds to make tube amps in Finland to young players who want to have at least 5-6 gain stages in their amps. Regards Harry Bluetone

I did get a little long winded. I meant it as a friendly caution only. I see where you're coming from more clearly after the second post and can definitely respect that. I definitely appreciate your contributions to the forum thus far too much to let a little comment like that bug me much, and really now that I understand the spirit in which it was made I have no real issue with it.

We cool then?

[benoit]

By the way, everyone who hasn't should check out BOB-I's new clips in the Dumble Discussion. Definitely different. Bob, I'm a happy camper now

[Bob-I]

By the way, everyone who hasn't should check out BOB-I's new clips in the Dumble Discussion. Definitely different. Bob, I'm a happy camper now

Thx Benoit. I never posted stuff like that before cauz... well I figured no one really wants to hear the band as much as the amp. Come to think of it, I want to hear all of your bands as well as your amps. Post more everyone!!

[GainMaster]

Sorry you got blasted for agreeing with me harryk.

This forum is inclusive which is great - no one will be tolerated saying "you suck as a human being because you like ***" - however it definitely is elitist - the bulk of the forum is about building on the two most elite amps on the planet.

The fact that folks will say "A is better than B because ..." (without starting a fight) is why this forum is so informative. Add to that some folks post self evidently excellent clips illustrating their words with real examples means we all know what we're talking about.

I've never heard a self evidently good metal clip - all I've heard is dry, lifeless and fatiguing to listen to (and that includes 70's metal precursors and 80's shredders).

As I stated before I'm glad that there is very little metal discussion on this board - personal opinion - this is a good thing.

GainMaster - thanks for posting but I think the SuperWreck belongs in Technical Discussion. I know you're a guy with much respect at AX84 and I'm suprised your post here is so "preliminary" given your rep. One thought - are you asking for assistance with the Lead II to make it more Wreck like?

cheers
Nick

Hey Nick, I appreciate all you comments. The Lead II can be made more Wreck like easily enough with some more tweaking. Any suggestions would be appreciated though.

This is my first post at an Amp Garage forum and I must say I have enjoyed it so far. Much more active than AX84. You guys have been very tolerant to a new idea even if you don't agree with it. In the future I'll hang out in one of the other forums until I actually build a Wreck. Heard one on You Tube and was blown away. I have just had this thing about cloning amps though. Find it much more exciting to build something that hasn't been done before just to see what it sounds like. But I have to admit a Wreck has been on my to do list for about 3 years now.

Brian

[nickt]

Find it much more exciting to build something that hasn't been done before just to see what it sounds like. But I have to admit a Wreck has been on my to do list for about 3 years now.

Brian

Hey you've got my problem! given rarity and prices you've gotta build one just to get to play it. Welcome aboard.