A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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selloutrr
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by selloutrr »

The beauty of an iso cab you can pick
the speaker (s)
box volume
microphone
insulation

suggestion

make a cab with the speakers recommended air volume build a track rail and cut a board so you can decrease or increase the volume to better fit your playing style and or speaker.
Use the box volume voicing as your eq

then if you really care about your "tone" go over kill and bring the studio with you!
buy 2 channels of neve preamps and put two mics in one ribbon royer 121 and one shure 57 or sennheiser md421
I promise the last thing you will say is it sounds like crap! Well as long as you can play :)

since trainwrecks are pretty much rolled off below 400hz you don't have to worry about the 160 and 315hz mud
a small tight cut around 800-2k to give room for vocals and my prefered lo pass 7khz ~
if it's got to much honk give back 800 and go wide -6db at 500hz
My Daughter Build Stone Henge
Andy Le Blanc
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by Andy Le Blanc »

"I'll get the Talkback mic and tell you to turn the fuck down."......

Ah-men......

And a good point about picking the venue.

The guitar amp is the players monitor.

put your wreck in a cradle and point it at your own head, no need to inflict it
upon anybody else but you... see how long you last.

With the modern gear that's out there, there's no need to EQ.
Even a basic drive rack and RTA mic will balance out a system and flat line the response.
The true sound of your amp with only mic coloration, its your sound.
the sound guy has no responsibility to your tone. Let him do his job.
The more you force him to coddle your needs, the less time he has for FOH.
The more you get him to carve the EQ to your ears the worse your presentation will be.

I like the "peg 1.x K in the mon. EQ" in the middle of solo, that's a good one.

Its a different story if hire a tech and work together, to build "your" presentation.

Listen to what the tech is telling you, your amp tone at that presentation
was not good, and it sounds like the tech ran out of options trying to fix it.

Your amp is your monitor......
NO ONE ELSE NEEDS OR WANTS TO HEAR IT THE WAY YOU WANT TO HEAR IT BUT YOU.
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Deric
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by Deric »

This...
...insisting that your instrument dictates the FOH and the venues presentation
only proves that you are a amateur act...
...and this...
MAIN RULE OF BAND.."DON'T PISS OFF THE SOUND GUY"
All you need to know. 8)
Deric®
Bear
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by Bear »

Side-filling the speakers (having them firing in from the side stage) or using only guitar wedges or cabs tilted back like wedges can help get that big amp-on-stage feel without stepping on the soundman. The one thing to watch for is whether you're bouncing sound off of a hard surface and creating a weird slap echo or possibly even comb filtering in the room. Bonus to the wedge arrangement, though, is you hear exactly what the amp sounds like and get that guitar-amp interaction thing going more easily than in a typical front-firing stage setup. But you also become really conscious of how loud your amp is.

(I remember hearing George Thorogood talking about Hound Dog Taylor playing behind his amp instead of in front, and asking him why he did that. Answer "Too damned loud, man." Well, duh.)
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M Fowler
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by M Fowler »

playing behind his amp instead of in front
Well I'm old enough to remember players doing that including myself as well as plugging our mikes into our amps. What PA :)
Your amp is your monitor


Good quote Andy :!:
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Richie
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by Richie »

Bear wrote:Side-filling the speakers (having them firing in from the side stage) or using only guitar wedges or cabs tilted back like wedges can help get that big amp-on-stage feel without stepping on the soundman. The one thing to watch for is whether you're bouncing sound off of a hard surface and creating a weird slap echo or possibly even comb filtering in the room. Bonus to the wedge arrangement, though, is you hear exactly what the amp sounds like and get that guitar-amp interaction thing going more easily than in a typical front-firing stage setup. But you also become really conscious of how loud your amp is.

(I remember hearing George Thorogood talking about Hound Dog Taylor playing behind his amp instead of in front, and asking him why he did that. Answer "Too damned loud, man." Well, duh.)
good info.. i know one venue, it has metal bleacher seats, concrete floor, i've never heard any band sound good in there, no matter how good they are, the sound sucked. sound bouncing everywhere,metalic sounding.

Another old venue, the sound there always had a warmth to it. Seen all kinds of bands there. Some old theaters also sound great. The same thing can be large places or clubs, the room has alot to do with the sound.

Some people use plexi glass in front of amps or drums, or you can turn a cab at an angle, or set amps on a road case to make them closer to ear level. This is more for the stage volume stuff. Sometimes you need the amp/cab so you can get certian feedback from it. Some bands need or want the stage volume. The sound man is more for the FOH or moniter mixes.
Gaz
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by Gaz »

The best trick I've learned, because turning down a non-master 50/100 watt amp sounds horrible, is to simply put the cab on the side of the stage pointing inwards. This is doubly effective because keeps your 4x12 from blasting into someone's face (and it sounds much brighter to them on the floor), and helps the rest of the band hear you better. I argued a lot with sound guys before I thought of this seemingly obvious setup, because as most of you know, it's not about needing to be loud, but it's about getting the map to 'open up'. And by the way, IME, a 1x12 and a 35watt Wreck cannot keep up with a drummer that is not a totally sissy :lol:
Cliff Schecht
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by Cliff Schecht »

Sorry but the 1x12 and Express not keeping up with a drummer, even a loud one, is bullshit. I could easily drown out my entire band by eliminating my attenuator, even in a bar setting where we play louder. I guess it depends on the efficiency of the speaker you are using too but my little Egnater can put out a LOT of sound. I've never found turning my cab around to face the band to be effective either, it's still just too damn loud! Keep in mind that the Express is really voiced to cut through too so there are a lot of mids and mid-highs that can easily drown out a singer and any other guitars in your way :D.
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geetarpicker
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by geetarpicker »

If the amp was cutting through too much (from the sound man's perspective) put the mic off axis, like way off to the edge of the speaker cone. That right there can make more of a difference out front of the PA than even the bright switches on the amp. The difference between an SM57 centered vs way off to the edge is NIGHT and DAY.

I've had gigs were the PA was so bright that I miked my 4x12 with the mic right under the last L in "Marshall" (small logo) which is barely on the edge of the cone. That said, I recently did a gig where with the mic dead center on the cone it was too dark out front (with the board channel flat) so it really depends on the PA. That was with EL34s and the full bright switch position. Still I run two 18' cords in series, a THD hotplate, and a few layers or felt over the fronts of my Scumbacks under the thick basketweave cloth ALL of which darken things up for sure.

I find with a small 1x12 the bass is so limited that the treble needs to be cut even more to balance the spectrum. I run 2 to 4 layers of felt over my M75s, those that are in 1x12s that is. It seems the less bass you have the more the treble get's out of balance and needs to be cut somehow even more.

Also a fairly fat sounding mic like a Sennheise e906 helps, and also I find 6V6s in a wreck as thinner sounding the EL34s so I never use them.

Also for the bright cap to be pleasing you need the amp volume up at least half way with most potentiometers that is. Any lower than that and the bright cap takes over.

Speaking of a blanket over the cab. I've done quite a few gigs where I ran a very small sealed back 1x12 at the front corner of the stage on a bar stool aimed back at me at an angle. Then I also run a 4x12 behind me miced with a Sennheiser e906, put a Tuki padded cover over the cab and left on all night. The flat profile mic really helps with this. Anyway I can hear myself with plenty of articulation via the 1x12, and I still hear some deep thump from the covered up 4x12 so it still sounds fat on stage. With this setup there is barely any forward bleed and it still sounds like a 4x12 out front. This is with a 16 ohm 1x12 in parallel with the 4x12, which with the somewhat inefficient small 1x12 I can get away with this setup only using about 4db of attenuation and all speakers M75 Scumbacks. I should also mention I typically prefer a THD hotplate, though I'm on the list for a Phantom. I owned a Dr. Z airbrake and never liked it at all with my wreck, too bright and shrill. The THD darkens the tone a tad and that works just fine, as long as I don't go down passed -8 which I almost never need to do.

Speaking of soundman I do plenty of gigs using one of my clones and through my own PA system. My PA has a total of just 4x12s for FOH though plenty of clean power. Two EV 1x12 SX300s for top cabs (with 1200 watts on them) and two Danley single 12 TH-mini subs (with 2500 watts on the pair). This PA easily allows me to run my Trainwreck clones in the sweet spot and still mic them though FOH, along with some nice fat drums, and of course vocals going over top all that! That said in really small rooms where folks may be sitting really close I use the padded cover trick I mentioned earlier. On larger stages I can still run -4 on the THD but skip the padded cover trick all together.

I also agree that if you have a powerful drummer a Wreck on a 1x12 only goes so far. It does depend on the speaker though. I can say that for comparison sake that with old G12Ms in a 4x12 I found that a Liverpool was not even enough with a strong drummer, at least for the clean tones and that's with a 4x12. I could see how on a single 12 an Express might not even need any attenuation if you have a heavy handed drummer, and a lower efficiency speaker. G12M speakers (my fave) are a bit less efficient than alot of other speakers, and they are even a tad quieter than M75 Scumback recreations which though they are obviously similar sounding seem a little louder. Also the OT in an Express can make a big difference. I find the Pacific 6.6k OT makes for a quieter and slightly darker amp. Heck my original with EL34s is quieter than a typical 5.2k Ceriatone is with little 6v6s!

Sorry for the long post, I'm a "sound man" also... :lol:
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DerStever
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by DerStever »

Ive been away a while and missed stuff - what is a VVR? I've tried DC Power scaling when it first came out - ok but fizzy at low low volumes even with the MV.

Lately happily, I have been using an Ultimate Attenuator with my 1987x Marshall - I can crank it as loud as I want. The UA dials it down to comfortable practice levels without affecting the overall tone - it does add more compression on the lower volume levels but in a club you can crank the system up and let 'er rip and you get more of a "normal" sound - however the compression actually sounds great so win-win.

Since I don't currently have any wrecks I cant give any analysis on how it would work with an Express etc. I am in the process of accumulating parts now and I'll let you know in the future how it works with a rocket.

I did use a THD Hotplate with both Express and Liverpool clones - and it works pretty well but I found it tends to be too bright and if you kill the bright/low switches at lower volumes you loose the high end and low end - it does play find in a club where your levels are louder.

I also play in church and couldn't use the wrecks there before but I really think I can do the rocket with the UA in church - and it will sound great.

My two cents.....
JamesHealey
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by JamesHealey »

This Venue is easily capable of holding 500 people, It's not that small his complaint wasn't necessarily that I was WAY too loud, he was just like dude it's a tad too loud.. (couldn't turn it down because of the amp just gets cleaner not really quieter) It could do with being a tad quieter he said though, He said he just about managed it but didn't wanna push the whole band up because it was earlier in the evening?

Personally I think thats bullshit, Match the backline and get a good mix.. My amp isn't stupidly loud it's a pretty inefficent McKenzie Speaker from a 70s Marshall cab in a 1x12.. and it's really not that loud at all, I mean I can play at these kind of volumes without complaints from the neighbours so surely it's not that insanely loud.. I live in a semi-detached house btw.
Andy Le Blanc
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by Andy Le Blanc »

Another really good point about sound guys, is ear fatigue.
After 3 to 6 sound gigs a week, it gets bad, and if the guy can "really hear" your amp
its too loud.

One lesson from celtic trad....

I have to deal with at least 4 different kinds of bag pipe.

great pipe come in at just under 110Db with in a meter,

stage position is everything, I mark the position with tape have them face
away from audience, but still mic and bleed enough into mix to get
good definition in the board record. Balance out the FOH.

nobody mics the great pipes, I do, imagine a wreck at an all acoustic folk jam.

The sound guy will make no assumptions that you have any clue.
Remember that the next time your working your stage plot before sound check.
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breakfastbuddy
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a trainwreak can not overpower a drummer

Post by breakfastbuddy »

a trainwreak can not overpower a drummer ,maybe a jazz drummer , but in fast rock , no way , if you play jazz then find a way to kill all that high pitch sound . put in a high kill pot in there . or set off a cap paralelled with the hi cap in the tonestack , when the wreak get a little more deep bas to work with its going to be lower in the mix .
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Structo
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by Structo »

Do not piss off the sound man, period.
Even if he is an idiot! :lol:

He can make you suffer in unspeakable ways...... :shock:
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
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sst4270
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Re: A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

Post by sst4270 »

Add a VVR.

It's perfect for this scenario!
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