Beating a dead horse no last time...

[Jana]

"Back to original question... If an original TW gets retubed can it still be considered original as it is no longer voiced by Ken? How about a re-cap job? Can its original nature be preserved through a re-cap?"

I don't think this question can be answered--at least not with an answer that will satisfy everyone.

If you believe in god and believe that god created all the creatures then where do genetically created life forms reside in the equation? Is Dolly the sheep an abomination or a cause for celebration?

If you are a collector that owns a TW and don't play the amp, chances are you are going to want the theory that only a TW voiced by KF (including the selection of tubes) is an original TW. As the other original TW amps are played and the tubes wear out there will be fewer and fewer "voiced by KF" amps available. The investment will continue to appreciate in value.

If you have a TW amp and are a player who uses the amp, then you will want the theory that it is the amp that is collectable and, with proper selection of replacement tubes, the amp will still be a TW voiced by KF. You can use the amp but still maintain the investment value.

If you don't own a TW but want to build a clone as good as the original, then you will probably want to believe that, with enough perseverance, the magic that KF imparted on his amps is discoverable and reproducible. There is a secret and with the knowledge of that secret a clone that is sonically indistinguishable from the original can be created.

The irony of the last theory is that, because the amp and it's original builder are acquiring such a mythic status, the "magic secret," if there is one, may turn out to be something so simple that it will be overlooked or discounted. If someone tries to reveal that secret that person will be guilty of heresy and burned at the stake for blasphemy.

So ends the sermon for today. If we could now turn to the hymnals located in the schematics section, we will all rejoice and make a joyous noise unto the lord.

[sst4270]

Another wrench...

How could one ever prove that the tubes in their original wreck were original?

Original or not it comes down to the old saying "beauty is in the eye..."
Or in this case "tone is in the ear of the player"

If someone is willing to spend 20k~30k for an amp so be it.

If that same someone were to play an original and a clone head to head AND that person was not able to tell the difference. Which do you think they'd purchase?

My observation is this: At this point I'd be willing to bet that the number of clones out there far exceeds the number of originals. Do the clones sound as good? That question will never be answered. Probably many do not. And I would go so far as to say there are probably a few originals that no longer sound anything like they did the day Ken voiced them. It only ever seems to matter when the time comes to sell one. Otherwise it's just a bunch of wood, metal, and plastic. Oh, and in the right hands can produce the sweetest tones that have the ability to captivate and inspire an audience.

To the original question. That question has been posed for decades with regards to all 'famous' amps. My limited experience in talking with amp owners is... (because at the end of the day it is truly up to them). Some want to keep it original despite the fact that it no longer sounds good. (original seems to only matter to collectors) Some don't realize that their amp's tone has changed because it happened so slowly over the years and one day they realized, hey this thing sounds like crap and they stop playing it. Some don't care and will have it re-tubed, or re-capped, etc... AND THEN they are ecstatic at the transformation. (I'm talking about old Fenders and Marshalls now).

In the end....

I think that regardless of clone or original amp: if it plays really well and the owner has developed a bond with that amp. That is a happy owner and the value becomes, well... priceless. (so to speak)

great thread btw.


Steve

[Noel Grassy]

So ends the sermon for today. If we could now turn to the hymnals located in the schematics section, we will all rejoice and make a joyous noise unto the lord.

This just healed my funny bone.

Praise Jeebuz

[ckpop]

You have to be careful !!!!!!!! thought I was going to Trainwreck Church and before I knew it I was in the Cult LMAO !!!!

[rfgordon]

Just to add a bit to the story about the Russian/Soviet aircraft--The Soviets reverse-engineered an American air-to-air missile, the Sidewinder, and the Soviet version was acquired.

One of the American engineers on the original missile had a signature he designed into one of the circuit boards--a few traces and components that didn't actually DO anything, but were his "signature." Well, the boys from the USSR cloned the circuit board right down to a circuit that was nonfunctional. They didn't know what it was for, but they didn't dare leave it out!

There's cloning, and then there's cloning with wisdom, which is our goal here on Ampgarage, right?

[MCK]

Just to add a bit to the story about the Russian/Soviet aircraft--The Soviets reverse-engineered an American air-to-air missile, the Sidewinder, and the Soviet version was acquired.

One of the American engineers on the original missile had a signature he designed into one of the circuit boards--a few traces and components that didn't actually DO anything, but were his "signature." Well, the boys from the USSR cloned the circuit board right down to a circuit that was nonfunctional. They didn't know what it was for, but they didn't dare leave it out!

There's cloning, and then there's cloning with wisdom, which is our goal here on Ampgarage, right?

Very good post. I'd wager to say they didn't know the "5 principles of design" so they cloned what they saw...

[selloutrr]

Ok let's throw one more wrench in for the fun of it

say you rent a few trainwrecks and set up a test rig. Same mic a cabinet for shits and giggles let's say an ampeg v4 loaded with pre rola's. Mic'd with a royer 121 and sm57. Both metered by an Spl meter and RTA (smaartlive) as an exp. Then you plugin each tw inserting a preset tone signal ie pink noise. And run them I guess wide open and at a mid position similar to plotting curve traces. Take a snapshot of the rta for each tw at the same volume. And compare similar trates. Now in theory couldn't you. Clone an exact voiced tw all you would need Is to closely match the freq response with in that data plot.
I would venture to say no two amps will Be the same yet in a batch of 5 - 10 - 15 they will all share very common trates. That could shine light on how KF voiced. The interesting part will be seeing how an all original parts clone compares before it's voiced. And just how much is voicing and how much is legend and choice of components. At least as a starting foundation.

I'm very impressed by the responses!

[Jana]

My answer would be no. You're only testing and plotting one aspect of a larger picture.

[UR12]

Somewhere out there is the worst doctor in the world and he will have patients lined up to see him all day today.

Somewhere out there is the best and worst tasting hot fudge sunday. I haven't found one of those yet that was so bad I couldn't finish it though.

Somewhere out there its the worst sounding TW. Even if they all sound good, one has to be the runt of the litter.

Somewhere out there is the best and worst sounding TW clone.

I would guarantee that not everyone in the world would agree on which was the best or worst, but I am absolutly sure that there are clones out there that sound as good or better than a real TW. It just depends on which litters you decide to compare. So who cares as long as it sounds good to you and it makes you happy.

Poor dead horse. Why don't you guys bury the poor thing.

[M Fowler]

Good answer Dana and echos my thoughts exactly who cares if your clone makes you happy thats what matters.

Don't forget to have some fun when building amps and build some crazy amps as well or a dedicated amp that you can try all kinds of mods to.

[Jana]

yup, the horse is dead and should be buried. Unless--the burning question, which was not asked but the answer is sought, is: how can I create a TW clone that is indistinguishable from an original TW in all aspects (sonically, visually, collectibility)?

[Colossal]

Guys, something I've been wondering about...

(Haha, sorry Dana, but that horse is about to get a lot deader...)

...There is a lot of discussion of Ken "voicing" each amp. How much variation do you think there is amongst all of the wrecks out there?? So in other words, if you were to look into the guts of every Express Ken made, how much variance amongst the components would there be?? I'm talking about values, not brands of components.

Voicing to me implies a departure from a set schematic to achieve a tonal variation according to individual players tastes or as Ken himself sought to approach a desired mean for the TW Tone in each of his amps. Sort of variation on a theme as it were vs. trying to get the exact sound with each amp but accounting for slight differences (due to part tolerance?) in parts of the same value.

It seems that everyone that clones a Wreck does so either according to Kelly 90 and sticks to it exactly down to the location of each wire (for fear of failure LOL) or departs from the purist approach and adds their own variations.

[talbany]

Back to original question... If an original TW gets retubed can it still be considered original as it is no longer voiced by Ken? How about a re-cap job? Can its original nature be preserved through a re-cap?

To answer your question.. Not even Ken can control how a certain set of tubes will react or sound in a given build.(especially Liverpool and any of the other cathode biased output section amps he made or worked on).. Even a set of matched EL-84's will sound different set to set.
Being that Ken( and no other amp manufacturer) had no real control over this I am sure he set his standards got as close as he could with what he had available maybe tried several sets until it met his (or his clients) approval and out the door it went..So for it to be 100% original yes it would need to have the original tubes installed by Ken that met to his standards...


Tony

[selloutrr]

... Get a Shovel!

[Zippy]

Voicing to me implies a departure from a set schematic to achieve a tonal variation according to individual players tastes or as Ken himself sought to approach a desired mean for the TW Tone in each of his amps. Sort of variation on a theme as it were vs. trying to get the exact sound with each amp but accounting for slight differences (due to part tolerance?) in parts of the same value.

It seems that everyone that clones a Wreck does so either according to Kelly 90 and sticks to it exactly down to the location of each wire (for fear of failure LOL) or departs from the purist approach and adds their own variations.

+1

Dogma: The fear of voicing an amplifier lest it vary from a widely ascribed belief.