Rocket Transformers

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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Mark
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Questions from the anal retentitive

Post by Mark »

Okay the bleeding obvious; has anyone encountered a realistic difference in tone between the 5199 and the 9914?

I suspect the output transformer would make a large difference, but the difference between the power transformers is something like 6 watts.

The difference in rail voltages would be 395VDC for the 9914 versus 424VDC for the 5199. This represents a 6.9% difference. I have no idea what the tolerance of a transformer would be, but would it be less than 6.9%?

If you had assumed I own a 5199 transformer than you'd be very perceptive. :oops:

To get back on track what is the consensus from those prolific builders?

Allyn and co.
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Mark Abbott
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Re: Questions from the anal retentitive

Post by RJ Guitars »

Mark wrote:Okay the bleeding obvious; has anyone encountered a realistic difference in tone between the 5199 and the 9914?
....

The difference in rail voltages would be 395VDC for the 9914 versus 424VDC for the 5199. This represents a 6.9% difference. I have no idea what the tolerance of a transformer would be, but would it be less than 6.9%?...
Mark.... these are the great questions and I am curious of the answers as well. I am also using the 5199 transformer, with good results as far as my own ears take things.

For the moment - disregarding the Output transformer differences. Is it reasonable to believe that a slight increase in the dropping string resistor values would put you right on top of the 9144 voltages and for this audio and electronics application, make them equal? As an aside note - I know that Allyn has mentioned using the higher voltage taps in some of his builds to add "More Girth" to a Rocket amp (Allyn - correct me if I am wrong please)?

Now - regarding output transformers, I think I'll have to try one of the HTS8093-1 units and listen to it. I am considering an order of a minimum of a dozen if anyone would like to have one at cost, lemme know.

rj
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skyboltone
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by skyboltone »

I'm going to throw in here. The specs I've seen on Liverpool schematics show a plate voltage of 320 or so. Ain't no way you'll get that with a 260-0-260. I don't know where that configuration got started but it's out there with the toneslut stuff.

I have a limited number of 120V primary 240-0-240 PT at 200MA plus, with a single, non center tapped 4 amp 12VAC filatment winding. This is ideal for a half power Liverpool or Rocket. You have to series your power tube filaments but I prefer that becasue it gives me 12VAC on the pre-tubes. I think the amp is quieter that way.

You can one off the thing from Heyboer for $85 + shipping = about $100. I'll sell you one for $70 plus shipping. I make a whole $10 on the deal.

PM if interested
Dan
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GrungeMan
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by GrungeMan »

Sky

Sorry I don't understand here so I need to ask, how do you figure a 260V primary is wrong?
With a SS rectifier and no load (no tubes) you have about 360V on the plates, with a load (tubes in) the B+ will drop considerably to 335v maybe.
My understanding is that 335v B+ is in the ball park for a Liverpool.

The Rocket B+ which is tube rectified is much lower at 305-315V.

Someone anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

Sky, can you PM me in regards to your Power Transformers, ie need more info; spec's, make, standup mount?, cost...

Thanks

Grungy 8)
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by Aurora »

I'm pretty certain having seen spec's like 235V/200mA for Liverpool and Rockets..... I have access to 250V/250 mA which I thought was OK..
Am I totally bewildered here, or..........???

Also- is 6.6k or 5.5k the preferred output impedance?
There are some interesting 6.8 -7.5k as well as some 4.5k alternatives in the market. As some may have noticed, I'm in Europe, and from a cost and shipping perspective , european suppliers are somewhat more favourable to me.
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skyboltone
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by skyboltone »

GrungeMan wrote:Sky

Sorry I don't understand here so I need to ask, how do you figure a 260V primary is wrong?
With a SS rectifier and no load (no tubes) you have about 360V on the plates, with a load (tubes in) the B+ will drop considerably to 335v maybe.
My understanding is that 335v B+ is in the ball park for a Liverpool.

The Rocket B+ which is tube rectified is much lower at 305-315V.

Someone anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

Sky, can you PM me in regards to your Power Transformers, ie need more info; spec's, make, standup mount?, cost...

Thanks

Grungy 8)
1.4 times 240 = 336VDC. With two EL-84s biased at 70% these produce 330VDC. If the toneslut burdens to that figure with a 300ma winding then there is something going on I don't understand. The liverpool schematics call for the lower voltage.
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Re: Questions from the anal retentitive

Post by RJ Guitars »

RJ Guitars wrote:...Now - regarding output transformers, I think I'll have to try one of the HTS8093-1 units and listen to it. I am considering an order of a minimum of a dozen if anyone would like to have one at cost, lemme know.rj
I talked with Phil at Heyboer today and placed an order for a dozen HTS-8093-1 units. He confirmed they are unique wind and will use M19 steel in the lams. I've had a handful of requests for these and those are duly noted. I'll keep the offer open to pass them along at cost for now. The quoted cost was $85 per unit plus freight with the entire shipment coming to me. He did not want to drop ship a dozen units. Delivery is expected to be 3-4 weeks out.

I also asked for a quote on an 18 watt version of this same configuration and he said he thought they could do it and he's working on a quote... I'll pass the cost info and particulars along when the quote comes back.

The demand was low (one request) for the Rocket power transformer so I haven't ordered any yet. I still have a handful of the 5199's left so I'm not inclined to stock up on anything else for now.

Thanks for inquiries and looking forward to another build.

rj
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GrungeMan
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by GrungeMan »

I looked at a few Liverpool schematics and I see 326 and 331 as B+ voltages, I'm assuming these voltages are taken with the tubes in.

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Rocket Transformer orders

Post by RJ Guitars »

AGF,

I have a dozen of the HTS-8093-1 output transformers coming and four of them spoken for at this time ($85).

Today I ordered a half dozen of the Heyboer 8199 Power transformers 280-250-0-250-280. Phil let me have them at the same price ($87) as if I had a bought a dozen. For those that make an early commitment I'll sell them the same as I planned for the Output trannies - Cost plus shipping. Note, they ship in bulk to me then I send them out individually to you.

If it looks like we need more more I can bump up the order between now and the time they go into production

Let me know if you are interested in one, the other, or both.

I also had asked Phil about an 18 watt transformer for a half power Rocket. He said this would be roughly $80 (maybe less). It would be wound in exactly the same fashion as the big brother the HTS-8093-1. However, it would be wound on a smaller core and with smaller end bells. He said there isn't much margin on these because they are complex to wind and materials is a smaller fraction of the equation. Let me know if anyone is interested in these and if we can get a minimum number (probably 6), I'll order these as well.

rj
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by Aurora »

Do these power trannies have 240V primaries........? :)

Is 250 mA enough for a Rocket or Liverpool?
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by RJ Guitars »

Aurora wrote:Do these power trannies have 240V primaries........? :)

Is 250 mA enough for a Rocket or Liverpool?
Aurora,

These trannies are 120V exclusively. After talking with Phil and absorbing the input from rhinson, I understand that you need to use the M6 steel to keep them ultra quiet at 50Hz. With the 120V and 60Hz it's not an issue here.

Phil hasn't started winding yet so I can ask him if he will wind one for 240V and use an M6 core... you'll have to commit to the purchase of it right away but under those conditions I don't mind asking.

The M6 core will be a little bit higher. I can find out if it's possible and what it will cost if you you think it's something you want.

Lemme know.

As for the 250mA question, somebody who knows chip in. I know those four EL84's at or near class A get pretty hungry, but I don't know how low they can go.

The VOX AC-30 tranny is 120/240 and obviously stout enough for the task. I think it is 280-0-280 on the secondaries. With one of Dana's VVR units you could dial in the B+ voltage you like... no guarantees how that would sound but I built a Rocket with the VOX tranny and VVR, it all works together very well.

rj
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fishy
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by fishy »

FWIW
My rocket runs ~180mA through the 84s depending on the tubes.
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by Moose »

skyboltone wrote: there is something going on I don't understand. The liverpool schematics call for the lower voltage.
I think you're worrying about things that are long since solved.

The power tranny is taken directly from KFs line card. His Pacific line card is the same even though the spec numbers are slightly different, because the pacifics are spec'd to 115V and the Heyboers are 120V. Point being, if you buy a 5199 or the equivalent Pacific, you're getting what was used originally.

The numbers on the schematics were measured or guessed at some time in the past on one amp in one configuration with one mains voltage and one set of tubes and passed down across the generations of schematics. God Bless Ron and Dr Hulsey for putting them all together and including values, but they recorded what was already written. I gives a good guess about where you should be, but can't be relied on as the "perfect" number.

In the real world, a difference in mains voltage of 5V will give a difference in a secondary of nearly 15V. For example, If I carefully choose round numbers to make the math easy, a 120V mains producing 330V is about 2.75 to one.

If that same mains voltage drops to 115V, we'll see just over 316V in a theoretical world.

Here's a real world example. My wall voltage at the moment is between 123 and 124V (according to my power conditioner). That same 330V secondary at 120V primary would, plugged in here at this instant, be close to 340V (2.75 * 123.5 = 339.625).

The tube complement makes a difference (I've seen pretty substantial B+ differences on amps when swapping brands on a quad of EL84s), your rectifier for a Rocket makes a difference, too.

All that said, the point is to use whatever PT gets you close to what you want and tailor it from there.
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by Moose »

Aurora wrote: Is 250 mA enough for a Rocket or Liverpool?

It's plenty. As long as it can handle the heater's draw, you'll be fine.
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Re: Rocket Transformers

Post by skyboltone »

RJ Guitars wrote:
Aurora wrote:Do these power trannies have 240V primaries........? :)

Is 250 mA enough for a Rocket or Liverpool?
Aurora,

These trannies are 120V exclusively. After talking with Phil and absorbing the input from rhinson, I understand that you need to use the M6 steel to keep them ultra quiet at 50Hz. With the 120V and 60Hz it's not an issue here.

Phil hasn't started winding yet so I can ask him if he will wind one for 240V and use an M6 core... you'll have to commit to the purchase of it right away but under those conditions I don't mind asking.

The M6 core will be a little bit higher. I can find out if it's possible and what it will cost if you you think it's something you want.

Lemme know.

As for the 250mA question, somebody who knows chip in. I know those four EL84's at or near class A get pretty hungry, but I don't know how low they can go.

The VOX AC-30 tranny is 120/240 and obviously stout enough for the task. I think it is 280-0-280 on the secondaries. With one of Dana's VVR units you could dial in the B+ voltage you like... no guarantees how that would sound but I built a Rocket with the VOX tranny and VVR, it all works together very well.

rj
Last one he did for me RJ he asked for a full set up price. In other words no quantity discount. Your winds may be different, but that's been my experience.
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