Yeah, Plexified, I was talking to Gregg Levy and he referred to this amp as 'Soundcheck', and yet I see on the TW site they call it 'Reality Check'. Oh well, I can see the humor there and how this could have morphed. I will call it Soundcheck. Gregg also said John was a very smart guy and he certainly had to pick up something by hanging out with Ken as much as he did. I will conclude this amp that is pictured, is an exact physical clone of Soundcheck.
Also, knowing that Derek F's Rocket amp was #2, I have to think it probably mirrors this same build. I appreciate there could always be some fine tuning for a particular customer, but in this case, as the story was told, Derek played Kenny's Rocket and fell in love with it. Why would Kenny want to f up a love affair, eh?
Blackburn, thanks for the production data. Funny, I needed that, as I always thought the Express was first.
Alright, where are the pictures of the REAL Rockets using the Panasonic caps?
Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal
Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
Im certainly no authority but from what I understand the Panosonics were just used in the PI section.Perhaps Ken was trying to achieve a different sound for that amp(s) Maybe he was running low on pvc's
Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
Funny thing sometimes, the powers of logic. And I think most of us here pride ourselves in being somewhat logical....
My logic says:
1) Ken's personal amp nicknamed 'Soundcheck' or 'Reality Check' (or Betty Lu?) is sitting on the bench at the place where current TW amps are being made by John Marks.
2) He, John Marks, has gone to the trouble to produce a Rocket amplifier for the TW company.
3) He - apparently - has elected to use a PT that does not have a rectifier tap in it, and so uses an additional transformer to accommodate the GZ34 rectifier tube.
Alright, I think I have presented this accurately. No?
So, considering just these facts, how accurate do most of you feel the entire build is relative to Ken's personal amp? Do you think he layed it out the same? And more to my point, did he use similar parts, specifically the coupling caps?
It has been presented to me by another forum member that this particular Rocket built by JM, is not intended to be an accurate clone of Soundcheck. In fact, he states it is just a Rocket built by JM - using JM's particular preferences at the time. To be even more clear, of course the forum member is defending the use of the Panasonic caps here and I am defending the use of Mallory caps.
There is no gut picture of Soundcheck, (or Derek's Rocket, for that matter) to reference. However, the other forum member feels - with conviction - that both Soundcheck and Derek's amp were built using Panasonic caps. I'm not sure why he is convinced of this but he is. Were there conversations about this on this forum that I missed? (If you know of these postings, please hip me to them, I seem to have missed them.)
Anyway, my logic asks, why would JM bother to build a Rocket that didn't attempt to clone Ken's Rocket? He has the PRIME example at hand and he is trying to sell the TW name, not his own name AND BRAND. Also, it certainly occurs to me that if you're going to build a Rocket using the apparent LP PT and add the rectifier tranny - like he did - why bother doing this if you're just banging out your own personal version of a Rocket? Get a proper PT and just get on with it, certainly it would be easier.
Is my logic flawed here? Straighten me out then, I'm all ears.
My logic says:
1) Ken's personal amp nicknamed 'Soundcheck' or 'Reality Check' (or Betty Lu?) is sitting on the bench at the place where current TW amps are being made by John Marks.
2) He, John Marks, has gone to the trouble to produce a Rocket amplifier for the TW company.
3) He - apparently - has elected to use a PT that does not have a rectifier tap in it, and so uses an additional transformer to accommodate the GZ34 rectifier tube.
Alright, I think I have presented this accurately. No?
So, considering just these facts, how accurate do most of you feel the entire build is relative to Ken's personal amp? Do you think he layed it out the same? And more to my point, did he use similar parts, specifically the coupling caps?
It has been presented to me by another forum member that this particular Rocket built by JM, is not intended to be an accurate clone of Soundcheck. In fact, he states it is just a Rocket built by JM - using JM's particular preferences at the time. To be even more clear, of course the forum member is defending the use of the Panasonic caps here and I am defending the use of Mallory caps.
There is no gut picture of Soundcheck, (or Derek's Rocket, for that matter) to reference. However, the other forum member feels - with conviction - that both Soundcheck and Derek's amp were built using Panasonic caps. I'm not sure why he is convinced of this but he is. Were there conversations about this on this forum that I missed? (If you know of these postings, please hip me to them, I seem to have missed them.)
Anyway, my logic asks, why would JM bother to build a Rocket that didn't attempt to clone Ken's Rocket? He has the PRIME example at hand and he is trying to sell the TW name, not his own name AND BRAND. Also, it certainly occurs to me that if you're going to build a Rocket using the apparent LP PT and add the rectifier tranny - like he did - why bother doing this if you're just banging out your own personal version of a Rocket? Get a proper PT and just get on with it, certainly it would be easier.
Is my logic flawed here? Straighten me out then, I'm all ears.
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
Rooster, JM uses the same Pacific PT used by Ken, part number 11410, and has dual B+ taps for Express or Liverpools/Rockets, no 5v winding. My guess as to why Panasonics are no longer used is because they aren't made the same way any more and I'd guess there aren't any more on Ken's bench, but I could be wrong. Maybe Ken did actually use multiple cap recipes. I think he used a few different makers for the OTs too, especially in Rockets.
Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
Thanks Mark. I think you directed me well.
Blackburn, so you also seem to be of the opinion that ALL the less then 10 original Rockets in the world used Panasonic caps in the circuit? Where did this information come from? Is it a secret? Is there a blood oath involved?
Have you personally seen an original Rocket or a picture of an original one showing the circuit board?
Are you also of the opinion that the amp on John Marks bench, Soundcheck/Betty Lu, actually has Panasonic caps in it and JM has gone about making an inaccurate copy of it?
Blackburn, so you also seem to be of the opinion that ALL the less then 10 original Rockets in the world used Panasonic caps in the circuit? Where did this information come from? Is it a secret? Is there a blood oath involved?
Have you personally seen an original Rocket or a picture of an original one showing the circuit board?
Are you also of the opinion that the amp on John Marks bench, Soundcheck/Betty Lu, actually has Panasonic caps in it and JM has gone about making an inaccurate copy of it?
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
I think someone already stated this but Allyn Meyers built his Rocket clone using a Ken F. built Rocket as his guide and that the caps used were Mallory PVC.
I've have used NOS Mallory PVC and new M150's and 6PS not much difference to me. Tubes and speaker choice are more important.
I've have used NOS Mallory PVC and new M150's and 6PS not much difference to me. Tubes and speaker choice are more important.
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RJ Guitars
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Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
I seem to recall that Derek told me that he took ownership of the first of the two Rockets that Ken Built. His is "Amanda" and I suppose the assumption is that "Reality Check" is the other, but I don't recall him ever mentioning a name for it.
Quote from Derek "Kenny then announced that he was going to make a second one and give me the better sounding of the 2. True to his word as ALWAYS!!! One month latter I had a rocket and he had a rocket."
FWIW... as I collected info back in the day when the Rocket was an entire mystery and I was still learning the secret handshake... I did get a couple pieces of good info that allowed us to make some really great "Rocketish" amps and unlocked many of the secrets of the Rocket... albeit through an unusual mechanism. After we did the original Rocket group build project with our close but not quite accurate understanding of it, there was a flood of info and expertise that came to light... it seems that if you know the right answer you might or might not get a confirmation of it from the experts, but if you are wrong, somehow it is human nature to reveal the previously guarded secrets so that you might know the error of your ways...
Another random tidbit -- In those early days I was told repeatedly that the right output transformer for the Rocket was the Dynaco 470. Later, I began a friendship and regular conversations with Derek. He told me that Chris Merrin worked with Ken in tweaking the transformers and it was never clear to me if they rewound or modified the Dynaco in any way. I have talked with Chris but he really didn't reveal much about anything except that Ken really helped him develop some great transformers for an AC-30 circuit... He is still winding these days and I am sure he could make you a great tranny. when I asked him yo wind me a Rocket transformer he asked me "what sound do you want to get out of it"... he really didn't offer to make one that was identical to a Rocket.
Rooster - check your email, I sent you a little something that might help you with your capacitor question... an internal picture of an old original Rocket with the Panasonic caps... sorry, I can't post it (nor can you) or it would violate an agreement I made previously. My understanding is that these .047uF maroon chicklets are Pansonic polyester caps. I don't know how they differ from what is available today. enjoy!
Quote from Derek "Kenny then announced that he was going to make a second one and give me the better sounding of the 2. True to his word as ALWAYS!!! One month latter I had a rocket and he had a rocket."
FWIW... as I collected info back in the day when the Rocket was an entire mystery and I was still learning the secret handshake... I did get a couple pieces of good info that allowed us to make some really great "Rocketish" amps and unlocked many of the secrets of the Rocket... albeit through an unusual mechanism. After we did the original Rocket group build project with our close but not quite accurate understanding of it, there was a flood of info and expertise that came to light... it seems that if you know the right answer you might or might not get a confirmation of it from the experts, but if you are wrong, somehow it is human nature to reveal the previously guarded secrets so that you might know the error of your ways...
Another random tidbit -- In those early days I was told repeatedly that the right output transformer for the Rocket was the Dynaco 470. Later, I began a friendship and regular conversations with Derek. He told me that Chris Merrin worked with Ken in tweaking the transformers and it was never clear to me if they rewound or modified the Dynaco in any way. I have talked with Chris but he really didn't reveal much about anything except that Ken really helped him develop some great transformers for an AC-30 circuit... He is still winding these days and I am sure he could make you a great tranny. when I asked him yo wind me a Rocket transformer he asked me "what sound do you want to get out of it"... he really didn't offer to make one that was identical to a Rocket.
Rooster - check your email, I sent you a little something that might help you with your capacitor question... an internal picture of an old original Rocket with the Panasonic caps... sorry, I can't post it (nor can you) or it would violate an agreement I made previously. My understanding is that these .047uF maroon chicklets are Pansonic polyester caps. I don't know how they differ from what is available today. enjoy!
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Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
OK, then maybe this is accurate: Ken's first Rocket was called Amanda, his second Rocket was called Betty Lou. Ken perhaps thought Amanda sounded better so he sold this one to Derek and kept Betty Lou as his own. This makes sense, A=1, B = 2 (first and second letter in the alphabet?) 2tone bought Dinah, maybe the 'D' letter represents the 4th Rocket, I dunno. Was there a 'C' Rocket? Interesting maybe. But then there's Marcy.... Oh, there would also be Malou, built by David Funk apparently. That's 5 that I can find referenced and I am not clear whether the tremolo Rockets should be counted in the Rocket amp total? At any rate, Betty Lou seems to have a few names at this point, 'Reality Check' and/or 'Soundcheck' - this seems to be referencing one particular amp.
I can also tell you at this point i am very curious if this Panasonic thing is legit. Since Mallory/SBE made the 715P Orange Drop cap (a polypropylene cap) at the time (and still does), I somehow find it hard to accept that Ken bought and used a Japanese cap. I suppose it's possible that he liked how they sounded? Was he going for cheap? I dunno. I have read a post on another forum where a well known audio guy, Jim Williams, says the Panasonic caps 'sound like crap' in audio gear, that he much prefers the RelCap polystyrene cap first, or the 715P down the line. Eh, and everybody knows there's hi fi amps and then there's guitar amps, both very different animals. So doubt exists for me regarding the use of the Panasonic caps in a real TW. I haven't seen one in person. I suppose IF I HAD THE THING IN HAND OR HAD A SERIES OF PICTURES I MIGHT FEEL DIFFERENT. And also let me point out that when I first heard about the Panasonic cap being used in the Rocket amp, some folks here were telling me that they were polypropylene. And now they are being refered to as 'polyester'...............?
...........Well, I do not want to be a source that confounds the facts anymore than they are...so I did some investigation on this subject. The Panasonic caps were - I'm pretty sure - always polypropylene. Considering their size, they may well be metalized polypropylene FWIW, and yes, as many here say, they seem to be discontinued at this point in time.
And I will also add without explanation that I now think the caps used in the recent JW built Rocket (maybe just the .047 values as some of you have suggested) could well be 715Ps, the polypropylene Orange Drop cap mentioned above. At this point, I concede that Ken was delving into the use of polypropylene caps in the Rocket. If I appeared overly argumentative, sorry.
Well, I'll give this a rest for now. Thank you all for the information you have shared with me today. It has not fallen on deaf ears.
I can also tell you at this point i am very curious if this Panasonic thing is legit. Since Mallory/SBE made the 715P Orange Drop cap (a polypropylene cap) at the time (and still does), I somehow find it hard to accept that Ken bought and used a Japanese cap. I suppose it's possible that he liked how they sounded? Was he going for cheap? I dunno. I have read a post on another forum where a well known audio guy, Jim Williams, says the Panasonic caps 'sound like crap' in audio gear, that he much prefers the RelCap polystyrene cap first, or the 715P down the line. Eh, and everybody knows there's hi fi amps and then there's guitar amps, both very different animals. So doubt exists for me regarding the use of the Panasonic caps in a real TW. I haven't seen one in person. I suppose IF I HAD THE THING IN HAND OR HAD A SERIES OF PICTURES I MIGHT FEEL DIFFERENT. And also let me point out that when I first heard about the Panasonic cap being used in the Rocket amp, some folks here were telling me that they were polypropylene. And now they are being refered to as 'polyester'...............?
...........Well, I do not want to be a source that confounds the facts anymore than they are...so I did some investigation on this subject. The Panasonic caps were - I'm pretty sure - always polypropylene. Considering their size, they may well be metalized polypropylene FWIW, and yes, as many here say, they seem to be discontinued at this point in time.
And I will also add without explanation that I now think the caps used in the recent JW built Rocket (maybe just the .047 values as some of you have suggested) could well be 715Ps, the polypropylene Orange Drop cap mentioned above. At this point, I concede that Ken was delving into the use of polypropylene caps in the Rocket. If I appeared overly argumentative, sorry.
Well, I'll give this a rest for now. Thank you all for the information you have shared with me today. It has not fallen on deaf ears.
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
Where does he work these days and did he talk about what he could offer you?he asked me "what sound do you want to get out of it"... he really didn't offer to make one that was identical to a Rocket.
Surely there are limited options in winding a transformer?
Yours Sincerely
Mark Abbott
Mark Abbott
Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
Reality check was a nickname!!!
Her name is Betty Lu
Her name is Betty Lu
Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
Thanks, Redshark. 
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
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dorrisant
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Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
rj, could you send the picture(s) to me as well? I would never post them... I just want to see what the real one looked like. To me it would be like seeing bird's teeth or frog's hair.
"Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned" - Enzo
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dorrisant
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Re: Q: Are there no gut shots of a REAL Rocket?
rj, could you send the picture(s) to me as well? I would never post them... I just want to see what the real one looked like. To me it would be like seeing birds teeth of frog hair.
"Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned" - Enzo