Trainwreck clips

[joe6v6]

It seems this blind taste test has put to rest the misnomer that you cant make a clone sound as good as the real deal.

Couldnt have said it better myself I have heard my Express amps do things and make sounds that I can only dream of having them make, I have my moments, but in the hands of a gifted guitar player these amps are truly something very special.

JOE

[geetarpicker]

It's been a very interesting thread!

Richie's amp "sounded" great but, as he stated still needs a couple "bugs" worked out. Pardon my long post as I'll explain why, even though his amp sounded fine the "bugs" were still a deal breaker for me and my search for the perfect clone continues...That said Richie may figure this one out in no time...

Actually I was quite impressed at how close the two amps sounded, though the higher the gain was set the more my original amp got more compressed and sweeter in the high notes (which I like) where instead Richie's amp stayed tighter and got more brittle. In the clips I had the gain set at a medium setting, which seemed to be the area where the amps "sounded" the most similar. In the room with the amp I noticed that my amp sound warmer and seemed to have more low end, however when I listened to the clips on playback I really couldn't hear as much of a difference. That said, I still think my original amp is smoother on the clean stuff at the beginning of the clip, however it's a little dirtier probably just because my guitar was maybe turned up just a tad more at the start of the clip. The difference of say 1 number on the guitar knob is quite apparent. That said, it's interesting many thought Richie's amp was smoother on the cleans. I'll agree cleaner yes, but that might have just been my guitar settings at the time.

However in person "playing the amps" the differences were quite apparent, and here is where. The controlled feedback was such an effort with Richie's amp. For example it took me about 10-12 takes to get the short clip you've heard. The amp would just fight being controlled in the feedback department. Most notably that high note at the end of the clip, 9 out of 10 times the amp choked on that one. Finding the right body position was difficult to judge. I even tried working on just that one note, moving around the room, tilting the guitar around, etc. Also I wasn't really able to get a clip any longer than that one, because one note or another would just not sustain ending up in a "dud" take. It was kind of frustrating, as the "sound" was there but I just couldn't get consistent control over it. Also, a big part of the "Trainwreck thing" for me is the interaction you can "feel" between the guitar and the amp. For some reason with this amp the "feel" was more of a fight to see if the notes were going to sustain, or die out. It was most apparent on the higher notes, as Richie's amp was more apt to jump to an odd harmonic or choke all together. But even lower notes were tricky to judge in this department. I did get the medium register signature licks from my CD title track tune "Can You Hear It Ring?" to sustain in the clip, but that took some work. More work than I was use too.

The same tubes were later put back in my original Express. Same cord, cab, guitar, everything. The controlled feedback was BACK. The amp put up NO fight. Actually the sustain was so much more effortless that it only took me about a couple takes to get a good one, and with further takes almost every time the note feedback was even more in control and more strongly sustained. I then was able to get a couple 6 minute clips without any choked notes. With Richie's amp I never could get the amp to behave that well, it was just too unpredictable. The clip that you hear of my Express is actually the same audio taken from my latest Youtube video, just the next 3 minutes edited out. In the end it was so much less a fight to get the notes under control with my original Express l that I figured I just wasn't going to like Richie's amp in the long haul unless that could be corrected. I should note that the gain was set similar in each clip, but I also tried to crank Richie's amp even more to see if the sustain would improve. That did add gain obviously, but didn't help much with making the amp feel controllably connected to the guitar.

After mixing the clips later, I did notice how good the tone of Richies amp was at least "on tape", very good. However, it still didn't have the "feel" that I was hoping for and wasn't nearly as inspiring to play. All that said, I really want to also get my friend's Ceriatone over here to compare it in the "Controlled feedback" department. I never really played the Ceriatone playing in the same room with it, and only really just recorded it for "tone" comparisons. I'm curious to see how the Ceriatone compares to my original and Richie's clone in the controlled feedback department. That comparison will have to wait until I get my hands back on the Ceriatone again.

I actually also sent Richie an MP3 "out take" that has about 10 "sustain tries" with the amp, just to show what I was talking about at least with that one problematic high note. What you can't see in the MP3 was the different guitar body positions I was trying, but not getting anywhere consistently. Maybe Richie can post the "out take" MP3?

Overall you won't find much controlled feedback in the clip of Richie's amp and the clip is also short, unlike the long clip I did in my Youtube video of my original Express. Basically Richie's amp just didn't inspire controlled feedback, and the only decent takes I could get were ones where for the most part I stayed away from trying for that sort of thing.

I hoping to find a clone that would be a decent enough substitue for live gigs. That said, the controlled feedback aspect that I demonstrated quite a bit on my CD is a big part of what I will need in a clone. Luckily the clones these days ARE capturing the tone and "clean to scream" aspect of the originals. Hopefully at some point I'll find or build a clone that has the effortless "feel" too.

[Richie]

Glen, yes i agree with what you said 100%. The amp is not working like it should.
I had to cut the clips shorter due to not having enough room at the site they were put on. I think there were only 4meg available. So i cut the one right where it goes to the blues part.
But in my amp,Glens playing made up for the amps drawbacks.
I'll have to check it out when i get the amp back. I don't think it will be hard to find the problem or get the amp to sing like its supposed to.
The good thing is, having Glen describe what the amp is,or is not doing,means alot to understand what needs to be done or what to do to dial in the tone. He is the Expert when it comes to knowing how the wreck should be reacting. As he said, more to how it reacts to your playing, than just how it sounds.

[doog]

Hey guys,

Just another opinion. I personally think the tone overall is way better in Ritchie's amp, but a feedback, possibly compression issue. Mmm, same tubes, what about bias? Both amps biased for the same tubes that were being swapped out? Just throwin it out there.

I do understand about amp reaction tho, I have 1 18 watter that has that in spades, compresses great, feedback all over the place, effortless to play. Another I've got, better sounding cleans and some slightly better crunch tones recording wise in some respects, but a real fight to play live.

[gcenker]

Richie,
just curious (and a noob who's building his first clone), how does one go about tweeking an amp to make it have more compression, sweetness and harmonic feedback?

I was always under the assumption it has to do with biasing, choice of iron, tubes, caps and sometimes just blind luck.

I have Toneslut iron, Sprague PS series caps, removed the power resistor, replaced it with a 10H choke and have my amp biased at about 45mA. I seem to have feedback on demand - especially when using my LP Custom.

Just my 2 cents.

[geetarpicker]

The same tubes were used in each amp, but sadly this pair of GT EL34ms are about 5ma drifted part, but still sound decent. The bias was set to 45ma (on the hotter of the 2 tubes, and netted about 40-41 on the colder) in both amps, though the B+ was about 50v higher in Richie's amp compared to the original. They were both biased using the current method to obtain the same net current draw.

Funny how some like the tone of the clone better. In some ways I agree on some sections, but definately not on others. I really like the warmer tone of the clean with the original amp, but I do like the crunchy stuff with the clone, though it didn't quite sing the feedback lead stuff but I already mentioned that.

If anything my playing was probably also part of the difference as the clips were done days apart, actually more like 2 weeks apart. Truly if I play a section in a different position it can make quite a difference, or if I'm just picking harder that day. Just a note that the clips weren't done with the exact same licks on the same day. That said, everything else was the same in the signal chain, including tubes and bias current.

On a similar topic it was interesting that folks liked the tone better in my "redone" Youtube clip (orange shirt one) as compared to the tone of the one I had with the tie dye shirt. That was the exact same qear, same tubes and bias, with the same recording settings saved in the DAW computer recording program exactly. The difference was probably mainly that I got my playing together better on the redone clip, and I also changed the position I played some of the licks which does effect tone noticably.

Just though I'd throw that angle into it all.

[gtrwun]

Richie, I just wanted to say how great your build sounds. I too was leaner towards liking the #1 clip better before you let the cat out of the bag. I thought the midrange overall sounded a bit more 'complex' on your amp.
I do understand the 'feel' issue and thats obviously very important to most guitarist. This whole experiment shows how important it might be to understand that the clips you hear over the computer are only part of the equation when trying to decide on an important purchase like an amp and you certainly cant decide if you 'love' an amp based on what you hear in a sample clip. How many of us have bought an amp based on a clip they heard, only to end up selling it in 6-8 months? GUILTY!

[Raja]

Yeah... ...anybody interested in a Maz 38 w/2x12's.....

[Richie]

Richie,
just curious (and a noob who's building his first clone), how does one go about tweeking an amp to make it have more compression, sweetness and harmonic feedback?

I was always under the assumption it has to do with biasing, choice of iron, tubes, caps and sometimes just blind luck.

I have Toneslut iron, Sprague PS series caps, removed the power resistor, replaced it with a 10H choke and have my amp biased at about 45mA. I seem to have feedback on demand - especially when using my LP Custom.

Just my 2 cents.

Well the first thing to do is not tweak it at all, but to look it over and see if there is a problem somewhere. This amp was more my experimental amp. which i had changed a few things over time. But it was still mostly like the express. It could be so many small things or something simple causing it not to sing or hold notes like it should. So i won't really know untill i get to look at the amp. Many things like values of pots and resistors can make a difference,even small changes can sometimes make or break it to be responsive. It could have had something jar loose in shipping etc.. On the other hand, you can also have an amp that will feedback too soon,or may not have any cleans. So you have to get the balance going. I'll keep you posted on the details

Your right,sometimes in building an amp,it can be blind luck and turn out great. Or it can be a nightmare,and have all kinds of noise problems and not sound right. It could be from simple lead dress problems to about anything.

[doog]

But I think yours won out in the blind taste test, many preferred the tone of yours over the original. I know I had no "influence" of the other replys since you sent me these files before I knew of the posts here! But yeah, totally different when you play live, you expect some things out of an amp and it doesn't do it, welll, I understand.

But when it comes down to it, Feedback or tone? I'd go with tone anyday of the week....even if you have to fight it some...

[doog]

Yeah... ...anybody interested in a Maz 38 w/2x12's.....

OOh faa, man, those Z amps! I know a guy who has a Maz 38 with 2x10's. While a decent sounding amp, not for me. He has to run the thing with an Airbrake, and at times , sounds real granular. And remember trying a RT 66. Yuk. Tone is in the ear of the beholder tho, might be horrible for me, great for you, so there you have it....

[gcenker]

Richie,
just curious (and a noob who's building his first clone), how does one go about tweaking an amp to make it have more compression, sweetness and harmonic feedback?

I was always under the assumption it has to do with biasing, choice of iron, tubes, caps and sometimes just blind luck.

I have Toneslut iron, Sprague PS series caps, removed the power resistor, replaced it with a 10H choke and have my amp biased at about 45mA. I seem to have feedback on demand - especially when using my LP Custom.

Just my 2 cents.

Well the first thing to do is not tweak it at all, but to look it over and see if there is a problem somewhere. This amp was more my experimental amp. which i had changed a few things over time. But it was still mostly like the express. It could be so many small things or something simple causing it not to sing or hold notes like it should. So i won't really know untill i get to look at the amp. Many things like values of pots and resistors can make a difference,even small changes can sometimes make or break it to be responsive. It could have had something jar loose in shipping etc.. On the other hand, you can also have an amp that will feedback too soon,or may not have any cleans. So you have to get the balance going. I'll keep you posted on the details

Your right,sometimes in building an amp,it can be blind luck and turn out great. Or it can be a nightmare,and have all kinds of noise problems and not sound right. It could be from simple lead dress problems to about anything.

Oh do keep me informed I think these amps are incredible. Although I feel I'm very close to the perfect (for me anyway) tone (is there such a thing?), I'm still tweaking on mine. As close as we all come to getting the perfect TrainWreck tone, the one bit of mojo no one can install is time. 20+ years of voltage and current passing through transformers and compnents tends to make things settle into their own, and mellow so to speak.

That being said, I think taking the sound clips, at face value without any details, makes them sound very close IMPO. I think you did a great job on your build.

-Greg

[doog]

Funny how some like the tone of the clone better. In some ways I agree on some sections, but definately not on others. I really like the warmer tone of the clean with the original amp, but I do like the crunchy stuff with the clone, though it didn't quite sing the feedback lead stuff but I already mentioned that.

Funny here, I liked the clean tone better in Ritchie's amp! A little more glassy/chimey. It's really all in the individual's ears. Listening back tho, I hear the lack of the feedback thing. And if that's a big part of what you want, I get why you'd like yours more. Certain things about certain amps i like may be slightly tonally inferior to something else, but make me play better. If you don't have to think about playing and just go for it, makes for better music, doesn't it?

Ok, enuf outaa me...
DøøG

[geetarpicker]

Just a heads up that I shipped Richie's clone back to him. Hopefully he will find some tweaks to work out the sustain/feel issues and get back to us. Nice amp, and Richie is a great guy to let me be picky and honest about the details. Hopefully I'll get to play it again after some tweaks have been made!

[skyboltone]

Greetings All:
I just got Geetarpicker's Album "Can You Hear It Ring". I'm listening to it as I type. Talk about PUI!!

This is a guitarists album. If you play, and don't have it I suggest you do.

Anyway:
The amp is capable of just a whole lot more tones/sounds than what I was expecting. It does Nashville (track 4) a whole lot better than I thought. The lead tracks alternate on several songs between a whole lot of different tones that for me anyway are hard to describe. The tone is all over the place. All without hiding the strat. Incredable. When the D is done I gotta make one of these!! There is also some of the nicest acoustic work I've heard in awhile on track 3 (New Mexico)

Nice work Glen. Who's your Bassist?